jtryka

I really like the proof 3cn Dwaine! Nice haul!

What a pretty Barber!

Super SWEET additions SlumLord!

Nice one Lanc32! Always fun to hear about antique store bargains even if they require conservation first!

I think aluminum was scarce back then, which is one reason it was considered for coinage. It was certainly not the material for pop cans like it is today.

I got this one in the mail today from Poland, thanks to Jackson64 and his ship registry I got turned on to this one!

Here's my image of the 50-D I posted earlier:

 

 

 

Um, Lee, I hate to break this to you, but that does not seem to be a 50-D!

what pretty dimes!

In short, because that is what the law says, as for the rationale of the law, that's anyone's guess. My feeling is that this is simply a way to assign a dollar value to the reserves for bookkeeping purposes, since the market value changes every minute of the day. However, you will note that the annual report of the Mint does note the market value as of the end of the fiscal year as well as the statutory value.

As for the first assertion, I know of no such website, however, this is an excerpt of the gold and silver custodial reserve section of the 2008 Annual Report of the United States Mint (taken from note 6 of the financial statements on page 53-54 of the annual report):

As custodian, the United States Mint is responsible for

safeguarding much of the Nation’s gold and silver

reserves, which include deep storage and working stock.

The asset and the custodial liability to Treasury are

reported on the Balance Sheet at statutory rates. In

accordance with 31 U.S.C. § 5117(b) and 31 U.S.C. §

5116(b)(2), statutory rates of $42.2222 fine troy ounce

(FTO) of gold and no less than $1.292929292 per FTO

of silver, respectively, are used to value the entire

custodial reserves held by the United States Mint.

Accordingly, the United States Mint values the silver at

$1.292929292 per FTO.

(side note, a few years ago, the custodial gold was reclassified to "deep storage" which many in the gold community took to mean stored in the ground as unmined deposits since all the refined gold had been sold - this is goldbug humor).

As for the second statement, this is theoretically possible, since that is the statutory price, and fits well with the denominations assigned to Eagle and Buffalo bullion coins. However, one must ask the next question, which is why? Let's make a big assumption and say that all the gold held in ETFs, safe deposit boxes, wedding bands and teeth is the equivalent of the current gold reserve of the US of 245 million ounces. The market value of that gold as of the last annual report (market price of $884.50) was just short of $217 billion, and the statutory value was $10 billion, so if the government pulled it off, they would make a windfall profit of $207 billion, or enough to close the gap of this year's $1.8 trillion deficit by a little over 10%, and they doesn't even include the massive cost of administering such a decree. In practice, this act would make the deflation that the Feds already fear far worse than currently stands, since suddenly millions of Americans would see one more asset they hold decline in value by 95% overnight (and you thought housing was bad!). A more likely event in line with the 1933 confiscation would be to take the gold and revalue it to reflect the current liabilities of the Federal government, which would value the gold at roughly $10,000 per ounce, create significant inflation and probable get the economy moving again (imagine how much you would add to the economy if you could turn in your Statue of Liberty half eagle for $2,500 or your old class ring for $5,000). But this is not at all likely to happen unless things get really bad and our foreign friends start demanding payment in something other than dollars and the Feds are forced to go back onto some form of gold standard.

As for the third point, I think this may technically be true, however it would only be a an easy way to find arguably the stupidest person in the world. I don't think the Treasury has ever conducted a purchase of gold at the statutory rate as it currently stands at $42.22 per ounce since the US is no longer on any form of gold standard. In fact, every year, the Mint purchases millions of ounces of gold and silver, and I guarantee you wouldn't find any new gold or silver eagles if the Mint only paid $42.22 per ounce for gold and $1.2929 per ounce of silver. They must pay current market prices, hence in FY08, the Mint made a 1.9% profit margin on bullion products with sales of $948.8 million, cost of goods sold of $922.6 million and SG&A of $8.4 million.

I know this was long, but I hope it helps.

Under the classical gold standard, the official pegged price of gold was $20.67 per ounce (hence a double eagle contains 0.9675 ounce pure gold). When FDR confiscated the people's gold in 1933, he subsequently raised the official price to $35, thus devaluing the dollar by roughly 70% overnight. The official price remained at $35 per ounce under the Bretton Woods regime, whereby foreign governments could convert dollars to gold at the fixed rate. This lasted until 1971 when Nixon closed the gold window. When Nixon officially ended the gold standard he also raised the official price from $35 to $42.2222222, but the only impact this had was on the official valuation of the US gold reserve since no payments or purchases have been officially made under that price since it was adopted. The nearest comparable is the book value of land on a company's balance sheet. Ford may have purchased land in the 1930s for a plant at a value of $10,000 and it remains on the books at that price until today, even though the value of the land may be $1 million today. The same was true of the US silver reserves which were valued at $1.2929 per ounce until it was exhausted by the mint in 2003 or 2004. Hope this helps.

I doubt the US has even half of the gold we say we have. Although the Fed may be restricted from engaging in swaps or leases, the Treasury is not, and they are the owners of the gold reserve. As for the gold at the NY Fed, they may not be allowed to lease or sell the gold held on behalf of foreign governments, but that does not stop those foreign governments from selling or leasing it. As for Fort Knox, it hasn't been audited since the 1950s I think, and only a few members of Congress have seen the gold and that was in the 1970s, so who knows what is there and what claims may be held against what is still there?

DaveG, I think what Ron Gillio was saying was that he had purchased a number of hoards in those regions and of all the hoards he had purchased in all those regions, this hoard was the most interesting and highest quality.

jtryka has given the bulk of the story - there's only a little bit more in Bowers' Red Book of Double Eagles. Bowers quotes Ron Gillio's description - he doesn't mention where the gold was stored before he bought it or who owned it.

 

Conder101: according to Tripp's Illegal Tender, the Government was keeping records of large gold withdrawals before the gold confiscation order and put a lot of pressure on private individuals to return the gold they had withdrawn, so I'd think it would have been unlikely that the Wells Fargo hoard could have survived had it been located in the States.

I believe this hoard never left the US, but was held at a bank for some international payment. It could be that the hoard was owned by a foreign government and stored here, which would have been quite legal. After all, the 19,900 double eagles was approximately 0.6 tonnes, and foreign governments have held hundreds of tonnes of gold in the basement of the Federal Reserve Bank of NY for the last 90 years. Keep in mind also that this would have been a large gold withdrawal made in 1917, well before the chaos of the early 1930s and all indications are that the coins were undisturbed from 1917 through the 1960s when they were rebagged.

I have heard that PCGS has graded 10 examples as MS-69, including one sold by Heritage in the Phillip H. Morse collection. I would check the Heritage archives for photos of that one, as it's likely one of the best examples.

From what I understand, the 19,900 coins were purchased in the 1990s, but they were in sealed bags dated from the 1960s. Those bags replaced the original bags from 1917 that had deteriorated. The original hoard had something to do with an international payment from the World War I era, and outside of the rebagging in the 1960s were essentially untouched since 1917. The fact that these were for an international payment was likely how they escaped the great melt of the 1930s. After they were purchased, they were stored for a time at the Wells Fargo bank in Nevada, which is where they got their name.

Here is a breakdown of the grades of this hoard: MS-68 (200+); MS-67 (1,700+); MS-66 (6,000+); the balance were MS-65 and below and there are a few that graded MS-69.

My understanding was that these were privately owned, and merely stored at the bank, but I could be mistaken.

What a looker Boiler!

That 1810 looks very well struck, nice addition!

SWEET SD Fishfinder!!!

Nice CC type 2 tdcas!

Those are some sweet looking busties mark, congrats!!!

Those are both AWESOME coins!

Nice DBHs!!! The cud on the reverse of the 1806 is interesting, you'd think that would make it easier to attribute, but not for me!

Dwaine,

It looks like the O has been recut, so I'll stand by my assessment as an O-122!