GoldFinger1969

As Roger's 1928 DE Bag story tells it....$5,000 was alot of money. The Secret Service and police were called in right-away....fingerprints...rooms locked and sealed. Dressel, the Philly Mint Super, had (blindly ?) signed a statement that the books were correct when he assumed control of the Mint. When the discrepancy was found -- even thought NOBODY higher-up though he was responsible or involved -- he was legally on the hook for the shortfall. That led to the push for legislation to absolve him and future personnel from thefts that took place through no fault of their own.

SSSP....Super Special Specimen Proof.

This is so true...and as I said to JJ above, your work, reading, and education don't necessarily have to lead to a purchase. I am fascinated by the circumstances surrounding the stolen 1928 Saints and questionable 1933 Double Eagles but I won't be getting one anytime soon (unless I win PowerBall and EC is willing to sell !! ). While I still am looking for future Saint (and Morgan) purchases....I've also expanded my knowledge and notes to include interesting facts on high-priced sales of those coins....hoards....and interesting stories involving the coins like their use in backing Gold/Silver Certificates to their usage overseas to their use as circulating currency here and elsewhere. I can share my knowledge then on these topics just like others helped me. It's not just about going to an LCS or bidding online !

We were all in the situation you are in at one time or another, Jessica. Are there any areas of coin collecting you want to concentrate or focus on ? You've asked us about a few different coins, but what you pursue going forward may be totally different. Also, what you FOLLOW and educate yourself on might be something you don't collect because it's either too difficult to collect and/or too expensive. Nothing wrong with following a coin type thought it certainly is more fun buying every now and then. There's also nothing wrong with just collecting all different kinds of coins and commemoratives -- what we call a "Type" collector -- and being a jack-of-all-trades sort of. I actually have elements of this in my own collection.

There was gold missing in the count with the 1928's. There was NO gold missing with regards to the 1933's. Veeerrrry Interesting, as Artie Johnson used to say on Laugh-In.

They couldn't find anything to do an investigation back in 1937 so I doubt we can do anything 85 years later. I wonder if there's any chance of ID'ing those coins via the dies. Maybe Roger or one of the vets here can answer that. Probably not; they'd have likely tried it by now. And if somehow those coins got into general collector circulation and many are now in holders graded...if you got them ID'd as part of the Stolen 500 they could be confiscated (or maybe you'd just have to monetize it by sending the U.S. government $20 !! ). It's just amazing when you think about it......25 1933 DEs they say came from the cashier they can track and use in a court of law in 2013....but 500 coins stolen from a locked and sealed cage/vault, no leads and no idea who could have done it, as if it was a bathroom and eveyrbody at the Philly Mint had access to that room and area.

For those following this thread....Mark was correct as I indicated above regarding CAC stickering of Wells Fargo 1908 No-Motto Saints. I found the quote in my notes regarding no stickering....the coins CAC has not stickered from The Wells Fargo No-Motto Hoard (or any 1908 NM's for that matter) are those graded MS-68 and MS-69, the top 2 grades all of which but 1 (MS-68) I believe are from the WF Hoard. There are 1908 NM's -- WF and non-WF -- that are CAC-worthy in lots of grades up to MS-67. But that's it.

Crypto continues to get hit. Any more weakness and we could get forced selling if we go below 16,000 on BitCoin.

Question....if you use a super-fine polish that removes microscopic materials invisible to the naked eye...combined with a much nicer Cameo appearance...couldn't you end up with a much nicer-looking coin that only under magnification can you see loss of detail ?

I agree completely.

If we go with one of the new grading systems, I'm pulling a Dennis Miller: "I....am....outta here....."

Huh ? No grade points from 59-79 ? WTH..... So basically it's an 80 point scale. We're gonna replace a well-known 70 point scale with an unknown 80-point one ?

Definitely impacted by Covid and the stimulus checks and stay-at-homes. So much $$$ flowed into stuff costing $50 - $1,000.

I'll bet if the stolen 1928's were found and trading today, they'd probably trade at a 40% premium to regular MS-65 1928's...or close to $3,200 vs. $2,200 for a non-stolen one.

The original thief has to have died by now. Could be, but I doubt it. Worth $1 million even if melted down. Yeah...each Double Eagle could buy a few hundred chocolate bars in The Depression ! Maybe...but no way to trace it as they would have crossed through the TPGs 55-60 years or more after the theft. I guess the 1928's -- all 500 of them -- could have slowly been disbursed over the years/decades as the 1928 was considered a common coin. But as gold was not legal to own for Americans until 1974, it may have been difficult to easily get rid of them in size from 1933-74. Today it would be much easier. Nobody knows. We know very little about this theft. As I've written here before, either because they hated the folks who obtained 1933 DE's or they were out to protect the innocent Philly Mint Super who was going to take the blame (unfairly) for the 1928's theft....the Fed spent lots of resources on the 1933's and not much apparently on the 1928's. I've come across NOTHING on the 1928 theft except this well-written piece for a 1928 Double Eagle bag auction that took place over at Heritage a decade ago. Roger Burdette wrote it. Check it out..... https://coins.ha.com/itm/saint-gaudens-double-eagles/double-eagles/-5-000-mint-bag-for-1928-saint-gaudens-double-eagles-pcgs-9189-/a/1166-4647.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515 :.

Really great post, Sandon, learned alot. You know, when you see a super-informative post in a thread like that... I wish we could "star" it or something and then have all the special posts appear in an Information Thread or be linked from somewhere on the website. Unless someone personally saves a thread via PDFs or cuts-and-pastes key information/posts into Word (like I actually do with Saints).....the information is lost. Not only does it probably have to be re-typed by someone at a future date, but others who might want that information have to request it. Imagine if we had a Super Thread with key information on various coins, striking issues, counterfeits, etc. Maybe we can discuss if this is feasible with the NGC Mods. In the meantime, I'll keep saving via PDF and Word.

I think the Mint creates these bogus "finishes" whenever they need to give a boost to sales. I mean, if they used them going forward it's one thing....they introduce them...say they're being "tested"...then we never see them again for the most part. Mint Official #1: "Hey, sales suck....time to introduce another of our 'special finishes' on the coins and tell them they better hurry before they are all gone, you know, like McDonald's McRib." Mint Official #2: "Best thing is to look at the clowns on the coin forums arguing about these finishes in a few years !!"

The coins in the article you cited that ARE proofs....yes. But I think readers of this thread may think you were referring to regular business strike Morgans that just are PL or DMPL. Those are NOT proofs. The gold coins in your article, yeah, I guess those are. Not an expert but Jeff Garrett is credible on gold.

Right, but those coins were STRUCK as proofs not some changed striking process that enhanced their finish (maybe) and were then CALLED proofs. BTW, how did you get the paragraph to highlight in purple ? Made it easy to find what you were quoting !

No, they are designated PL or DMPL but should NEVER be called proof unless they were recipients of polished dies and/or a special striking process. As an example, you have a big debate on whether or not some of the MCMVII High Relief Saints are "proofs." NGC said (not SAYS) YES, PCGS has consistently said NO. Note I said "said"..... as NGC no longer (apparently) uses the designation but the ones in the past maintain the Proof designation and can be marketed as such. The pros and cons are discussed in Roger's Double Eagles book. Despite being on the no-proofs side, he gave equal time to the other side. Kudos !

A dealer told me "SP" stood for Special Proof !!!

1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Timeline, if anbody is interested: March 2nd, 1933: 1st 1933 Saint-Gaudens DEs are struck. The official Mint records and most previous sources do NOT cite March 2nd as the date of first striking, but March 15th. Roger Burdette uncovered this discrepancy from a letter dated 1945. March 4th: FDR sworn in as president March 5th: Last official gold shipment to Federal Reserve banks leaves the Mint March 6th: Treasury Secretary Woodin (a coin collector) orders Mint Director Robert J. Grant to not "pay out" any more gold. Grant complies, with an addendum: ".....this does not prohibit the deposit of gold and the usual payment thereof." March 7th: A wire is sent from an Asst Attorney General stating that Mint personnel could continue exchanging gold coins for gold coins. March 15th: A letter is sent by Acting Director Mary M. O'Reilly (Mint Director Robert J. Grant was on leave) informing Lewis Froman of Buffalo, NY that he could deposit gold bullion directly at the Mint in exchange for gold coin because it "....neither increases nor depletes the stock of gold in the Treasury." April 5th: FDR's Executive Order 6102 goes into effect. April 12th: Last "legal" day to participate in coin-for-coin exchanges. May(?)-June(?) - An entire bag (250) of 1928 Saint-Gaudens DEs is stolen from the Philly Mint vault. The bag appears to have been stolen at the same time that 1933 Saints were placed in the vault.

I've seen labels that mention the Die Crack but not in the coin designation itself.

Are there LOTS of sales at those respective prices...or are you seeing just an outlier every now and then ? Not sure $170/$180 vs. $150/$160 is a big enough gap or trend change but I'll take your word for it since I don't watch this particular issue that closely. I am pretty sure this coin was $100 tops pre-Covid. I'll check my records, I know I bought 1 or 2.

Were the 2013 Enhanced ASEs struck at WP ? I can't recall and my coins are buried under stuff. But it is indicative of classic coins being legit, so that's good. Tough to replicate known die cracks.