GoldFinger1969

I guess I have a fast and loose relationship with REALITY. A general descriptive from the IRS does not overule standard practice or an IRS Private Letter Ruling (PLR). Of which MANY have been granted to the point where it is standard knowledge about what is allowed and what is not allowed. You think churches aren't lobbying on hunger issues, Kurt ? You think black churches aren't lobbying on voting rights issues, Kurt ? You think the NEA isn't speaking out about tuition tax credits or vouchers, Kurt ? In many cases, they even endorse specific federal/state/local candidates....endorse presidential candidates....run phone banks....etc. And setting up a 501(c)-4 or other quasi-tax exempt affiliate is a Chinese Wall with no walls.

Sorry, but if you think the colleges, universities, AND their trade organizations (i.e, AAUW) aren't engaged in lobbying, think again. The AAUW even advocated on blatantly political legislation that had nothing to do with "education" or colleges/universities. The AFT and NEA both have done it for decades for public education or so they say. No fiction, Kurt. Facts....just the facts.

For Saints, Indian Heads, or both, Mark ?

Nothing has happened in decades....the key is whether a significant amount of resources and time and $$$ goes to endorsing a specific political candidate. Talking about ISSUES or lobbying for relevant legislation has always been OK. Without knowing the details of your organization....the funds you raised under certain conditions were then given to an affiliated organization for other activities....depends on the relative amounts raised and given and for what purpose.

My understanding is they are tax-exempt and most/all probably have 501(c)-3 status....certainly, their endowments do NOT pay income taxes. https://www.aau.edu/sites/default/files/AAU Files/Key Issues/Taxation %26 Finance/Tax-Exempt-Status-of-Universities-FINAL.pdf

The statement on "attempting to influence legislation" is so wide and broad you can drive a fleet of Suezmax and Panamax boats through it.

OK, but I'm just saying that the notion that tax-exempts don't lobby or speak out is nonsense. They do it ALL the time. Biggest example is churches, esp. black churches. Synagogues, too (Israel). This statement is contradicted by what Kurt posted before it. It really is saying STOP and GO at the same time: "Organizations may, however, involve themselves in issues of public policy without the activity being considered as lobbying. For example, organizations may conduct educational meetings, prepare and distribute educational materials, or otherwise consider public policy issues in an educational manner without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status.”

That's preposterous. That goes to the very nature of the organization. It would be like colleges and universities not lobbying on educational matters or churches/synagogues not speaking out on legislation or foundations or charities not speaking out. They do it ALL the time. Direct endorsements of specific political candidates or lining up with 1 party are the issue, NOT speaking out or lobbying on relevant legislation. Now, if the ANA decided to campaign in favor of cutting the capital gains tax and using resources and $$$ that would be another thing (although even here if you can prove a link 5-6% was said decades ago to be OK on political spending by the IRS). But lobbying against sales tax on coin sales -- direct interest and no problem.

This is boilerplate. Tax-exempts lobby and support all kinds of legislation all of the time. Providing direct political assistance to specific political candidates is trickier. But I suspect your citataion above is outdated or superseded by other clauses.

I do not believe the IRS is going to have a problem with any of those advocacy positions. Plenty of 501(c)-3's do that all the time.

Unless it's politics or personal enrichment via excessive compensation, the 501(c)-3 rules are very flexible. What are you saying is off-limits ?

Invest in a strong....tough....HEAVY.....safe.

Yes...and it seems an average 1-kt. diamond in the 1930's was about $75-$125.

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: More hoard tidbits for the next 3 coins in the series. 1908-D Type 3 / Long Rays, With Motto: Several hundred coins for this particular type came from Central America in 1983. The Manfra, Tordella, and Brookes Hoard (1983) is probably the largest gold coin hoard ever found. Most of the 47,000 coins consisted of U.S. Double Eagles, mostly Saints, but many Liberty Heads, too. The rest (<5,000) were smaller denomination gold coins.Discovered in Central America -- El Salvador -- more than 90% of the coins were uncirculated. Thousands graded MS64, MS65, and even higher. Stack’s co-sold the coins and they say they were contacted by a major foreign bank to gauge interest in acquiring a large holding of U.S. gold coins consisting mostly of Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles. It was one of the major banks who received and stored U.S. gold coins as payment from the U.S. government.There were over 100 MS64, MS65, and MS66 specimens for this particular 1908-D WM LR. Subsequently other uncirculated examples of the 1908-D WM including many choice specimens, were located in Europe and sold in the late 1980s and early 1990s.Because of this increased supply, as many as 250-300 Gem Mints are now known of this previously impossible-to-find issue, although no more than a few, perhaps 12-15 at most, are Superb Gems (MS-67 and up).1908-D No-Motto: The same MTB 1983 El Salvador Hoard contained many uncirculated examples of the 1908-D No Motto, many of them grading choice to gem uncirculated with some superb MS66. Before the hoard, the 1908-D NM was very scarce in high grades.1908 No-Motto: The famous "Wells Fargo Saint-Gaudens Hoard" was comprised of 19,900 coins from Central or South American. The hoard's Saint DEs had been kept in sealed bags since 1917. These bags had been temporarily stored in the vault of a Wells Fargo Bank, to which the hoard owes its name.The 1908 No-Motto Saints from the "Wells Fargo Hoard" are of nearly uniform high quality, most grading out in the MS65 to MS67 range when they were submitted to the major certification services. Even more significantly, the hoard contained 10 MS-69s, 101 MS-68's, and over 1,000 MS-67's.There's more details to the story, but Ron Gillio has never given specifics on the nature of the hoard: who owned the coins, which country they came from, bank or private investor or military personnel or govt agency, etc. It's understandable why he would remain quiet when the coins came out in the late-1990's; you would hope he would not be as constrained 25 years later.

I would think that even a small diamond -- while easier to smuggle -- would have cost a few hundred dollars in the 1920's or 1930's, right ?

Where did you get it ? It looks like corrosive damage. Welcome to the forum. Hope you stick around a while !

Not a bad idea....I believe I have a 1982 MS or PF67 Red Penny that I picked up at FUN 2020 for like $20 when I just wanted to wipe out my allocated $$$ for coins on the final Sunday.

European Jews seemed to have an affinity for gold and gold coins. Probably because many were businessmen and/or involved in the jewelry trade. Plus, when you needed to travel or flee persecution....gold coins were universally accepted. Stories abound of many immigrants hiding gold coins inside the linings of clothing, which I am sure you are aware of. I agree with you on the overall use of gold coinage -- most sat in vaults. But lots were hoarded by various groups and I think that's why we continue to see a drip-drip-drip out of SDBs in the U.S. and more so European banks. Doug Winter and others with contacts overseas continue to track a steady flow from Europe to the U.S. of Liberty and Saint DEs. Nothing compared to decades ago....but enough to impact select pricing in certain dates.

You're essentially correct...but still, many people DID keep gold. You know who did ? Immigrants like my family....Italians, Slavs, Greeks, Jews, and other immigrants from 1880 on. I'm not saying they were Silas Marner with a huge pot of gold coins. A $20 double eagle might represent 2 months of income for some depending on the year we're talking about. But after working a few years, it wouldn't take much to accumulate SOME savings -- and clearly, many people (esp. immigrants) distrusted banks. Maybe there were some surveys of small denomination gold coins and how many circulated, I dunno. I just think from talking to many of my friends today almost ALL of our grandparents/great-grandparents had a few gold coins (and none were higher than lower middle-class or "poor" at the time they worked). All of us all had those elders turn in their gold in the 1930's....it was considered your patriotic duty....and recent immigrants were afraid not to comply. My grandfather (mom's father) had a dozen or more gold coins he had accumulated while in the Merchant Marines, travelling around the world. I don't know if they were Liberty's or Saints (he was active from 1923-41) or foreign gold coins (though I doubt they were those). I wish I had asked him when he was alive.

I'm surprised RWB is the only one who has really written about those stolen 1928 DEs to the best of my knowledge. Cannot recall anything written by QDB, RWJ, etc....on that rather large theft. As Roger has said, there isn't much information to go on aside from an old 1928 DE bag that was auctioned off. For whatever reason, Mint personnel were not grilled about what went wrong when the bill to relieve the Mint Super of personal liability commenced 10-15 years later.

GREAT movie !! "Wasn't no cop man, it was COPSSSS...SSSS....plural....9 or 10 cops !!"

I'm not an expert on these procedures, but I do not believe that with business booming that NGC would have knowingly steered you into something just to make a few bucks.

Well, you can't have a run on the gold coins in your floorboard !!

I'm surprised more lower-income households didn't keep their savings in gold vs. banks. After all the "panics" throughout the decades and with FDIC Insurance decades away, you would think little stashes were more popular pre-1933.

Thinking about this now....it seems to me that one of the reasons Randy's talk at FUN 2020 was so well-attended was the promise of him giving out 10 undervalued Morgan years/mints. Even at a coin conference, having a talk on "The History of Saints, 1907-33" might not be an attention-grabber. Better to have something like "Ways To Make $$$ With Saints in 2023" or something like that.