GoldFinger1969

On 2/28/2023 at 6:00 PM, World Colonial said:

Fortunately, few coins sold for more than $500 or so at the time.  By 1965, to my recollection, the 1916-D Mercury dime already listed for $1000 in UNC in the Red Book.

Had to be the same trophy coins of today.  The MCMVII UHR and a few Saints like the 1927-D were selling for over $2,000 by the early-1960's in what would today be MS-65 condition.

On 2/28/2023 at 1:40 PM, World Colonial said:

I assume he made a "middle management" income by today's standards.  Maybe somewhat less due to his lifestyle.

I think more, WC.  He may have worked for the Eastman side of Eastman Kodak, no idea.  But he had to have had a good salary.  I'll ask my aunt next time I see her what my uncle's friends made who worked at Kodak and Xerox in Upstate New York.

On 2/28/2023 at 1:40 PM, World Colonial said:

I assume he made a "middle management" income by today's standards.  Maybe somewhat less due to his lifestyle.

CW says he took out a 2nd mortgage to bid on the Farouk coins in 1956.

It appears he spent about $3,000 a year for 30+ years buying coins.  So he had leeway to buy a coin that he thought was worth $300 if it went to $500 or so...but if a coin he wanted for $500 went for $2,000 he'd be screwed.  This is where his famous bidding strategy came into play, I guess. 

David Akers' firm handled the sale of the JJP coins.

From CoinWeek:

"....Perhaps no numismatist was better at identifying sleepers than the late John Jay Pittman (1913-1996). His daughter Polly told me her father used to stay up until two or three in the morning studying auction catalogs and other numismatic reference works. As a result, the story goes, over his lifetime Pittman invested no more than $100,000 in his collection, which sold for over $30 million after his death!

Pittman was a shrewd negotiator, but more importantly, a shrewd researcher. While the benefit of time greatly helped enhance the value of his collection, he made many carefully thought-out purchases of sleepers. A few well-known examples that sold in 1997 during the first installment of the sale of his collection include his purchase at the 1948 ANA convention in Boston of a 1792 Half Disme for $100 that realized $308,000; his 1956 purchase of a Proof 1854 Type 2 Gold Dollar, one of four known, for $525 that realized $176,000; and his purchase of one of two known Proof 1833 $5 Half Eagles for $635 from the 1954 King Farouk sale in Egypt, which realized $467,500. He purchased the 1854 Proof Gold Dollar at the Central States Numismatic Society Convention auction in Indianapolis where, when the lot came up for sale, he walked to the front of the room, faced the crowd, held his arm high in the air to bid, and stared down anyone who dared to bid against him until he won the coin. After that move, he earned the nickname 'The Statue of Liberty.'"

On 2/28/2023 at 10:48 AM, World Colonial said:

This means that he must have been relatively high-income for the time and that this "regular guy" perception has to mostly be myth.

I assumed he was high-ranking but not at the top ranks of Eastman Kodak.  I assumed he made at least~$20,000-$30,000 a year in the late-1950's/early-1960's as he was a chemical engineer and my uncle was one also and he made a pretty good living -- not rich but very comfortable.

Working for a Fortune 100 company, I'll assume JJP made a few more $$$ than my uncle. I wouldn't be surprised if he made $50,000 a year -- probably Top 1% of all earners back then, but not rich-rich. 

You're right, WC...he definitely wasn't a blue-collar guy...but he wasn't a super-wealthy guy like many collectors in Philly, NYC, and Boston.  Eliasberg was definitely wealthy and I don't believe he had to work to live the lifestyle he chose.  Pittman would have probably had to keep working as I doubt his accumulated wealth ex-coins was probably not enough to quit his day job.

Sandon, the 1853 Arrow & Rays made 16% a year.  That beats even the 12.5% a year I computed for Harry Bass' 1860 Proof Liberty Double Eagle (MS-65+/Cameo/CAC) which he bought in 1970 just before gold and gold coins both took off.

Most trophy coins I have worked out IRRs for were mid-single digits over the years.  Unless one got lucky, I don't recall more than 1 maybe 2 coins that beat a 16% compounded return for any period of years.

But Pittman's collection in the aggregate does it.  If you assume an average weighted-period of 30 years in putting together that $100K that WC cited (plus the final value)...then his CAGR was just under 21% a year.  Assume more $$$ spent earlier....holding period of 40 years.....and his return is still just over 15% a year. 

I believe the fact that he WAS just an average middle-age worker who spent his discretionary income (and inheritances, I believe) on coins instead of the racetrack and bookies and whatever....led to his being the poster boy for unrealistic investing gains from coins.  His fantastic returns probably stoke so many people into thinking they too can make 15-20% a year on coin investing. 

He was a smart guy...and he bought quality....but he was also fortunate that the demographic tailwind helped him along with a 10-20 fold increase in the prices of silver and gold.

Got the book, American Default...it's REALLY good, pro or anti-gold, FDR, or gold coins I think anybody who's ever bought a gold coin (classic or modern) will enjoy it.....it's a great read. 

Reading it and Roger's sections on the gold standard and 1930's at the same time.  Great thing about both is they each have a great bibliography reference for more in-depth analysis (if you want even more  ).

On 2/26/2023 at 10:37 PM, Sandon said:

THE "ANSWERS"

    In 2022, NGC graded this coin VF 35.  This coin was sold to me in May 1998 as Lot 1446 of Part Two of the auction of the famous John Jay Pittman Collection. The late David Akers, who catalogued and sold the Pittman Collection, described it as follows:"1805, O-106. Rarity-3. Fine. Cleaned, now with multicolored toning. Numerous light marks and hairlines consistent with the rather low grade. Purchased from Barney Bluestone's 97th sale, 6/27-28/47, Lot 1437, for $5."

Wow, so Pittman had this coin for over 50 years.  Wow....

I didn't know that Akers did the analysis on coins like this.  I thought he was a gold specialist.  Interesting....and $5 ????  Good Grief !! 

On 2/26/2023 at 10:37 PM, Sandon said:

 The coins in the Pittman collection were all sold uncertified, and many were undergraded by market standards.

So true of so many of the auctions from the 1980's onward.  Not at all unusual to see coins being sold 2-3 grades low, even for well-known coins like Busts, Saints, etc.

On 2/26/2023 at 10:37 PM, Sandon said:

For those who may be too young to remember, the Pittman collection, sold in three auctions between 1997 and 1999, was one of the greatest collections sold in the 1990s, probably second only to the Eliasberg collection.  Pittman, a collector of moderate means who was also prominent in the ANA and other numismatic organizations, built an outstanding collection especially noted for its early U.S. proof coins and rare date gold, as well as rare world coins, including all three known 1936 Canadian "dot" cents. T

Pittman was in the right place at the exact right time.  His collection was worth MILLIONS and I think someone once figured out that he made like 20% per year on all the $$$ he spent on coins.  He just happened to buy stuff before the post-WW II Baby Boomers and other demographic tailwinds propelled the value of the coins up....then all his gold and silver not only benefitted from those as well, but also the end of controlled gold and silver prices.

Like a kid in NYC collecting baseball cards as investments in the 1950's vs. one in the 1980's, timing is EVERYTHING !! 

On 2/26/2023 at 7:43 PM, RWB said:

The new book, Saudi Gold and other Tales from the Mint due from the printer in a couple of weeks, has an opening chapter that demystifies and demythifies the "gold standard." I expect it will highly irritate a segment of collectors.

Another reason to read it, thanks !  Pro or con, I love factual debates. 

Separate out the pure silver and/or gold (if any) coins. 

On 2/26/2023 at 4:20 PM, VKurtB said:

I’d frankly be surprised if there was any domestic dissent expressed in writing. 

Dissent, concerns, opposition from conservatives from FDR's own party, opposition from the GOP, etc.  I believe most of the gold cases that reached the SCOTUS were 5-4 decisions.

Dean Acheson had concerns and FDR himself had attacked Hoover in '32 for weakening the economy and bringing the country to the brink of having to leave the gold standard.  It'd be interesting to see if any of his advisors said he'd look stupid for doing what he accused Hoover of bringins us to the brink of just a few months earlier.

It might have already been covered in some books, I'll scan and report back. 

On 2/26/2023 at 1:44 PM, VKurtB said:

The single biggest obstacle to classical Smithian economics is the practical difficulty of lowering wages. Without that ability, which has been effectively eliminated, all that remains as a tool is to cause inflation, something which we have seen this regime create with magnificent unprecedented efficiency. 

I'm looking for debating memos from the 1930's, not with you, not that I don't enjoy the back-and-forth. 

To my fellow NGC veterans......is it just me or have we REALLY seen a big surge of newcomers here who have either found a single coin they think is worth something and/or inherited or come into collections ?  I can't remember this many people coming in asking about a coin or two....or folks who have a bunch of coins that were dropped into their lap. 

On 2/26/2023 at 1:22 AM, kamipoppins said:

I am looking to sell most, if not all of them. I have been researching them but they just don’t interest me enough to want to keep collecting them. 

Not everyone is into coin collecting, I get where you are coming from.

Far be it for me to toot my own horn, but you might find OTHER coins interesting in the U.S.Coin, World, Ancient threads.  For instance, many of us here (myself included) are into the larger Morgan silver dollars and Saint-Gaudens gold coins, each of which has fascinating histories.   They're a jump up from the $20-$50 small denomination prices that you can find for the others, but if you like American history they might be of more interest while also letting you double-up by accumulating silver and/or gold. 

Plenty of threads on each if you decide to go that way. 

On 2/25/2023 at 9:01 PM, VKurtB said:

As country after country went OFF their gold standard, their economies nearly instantly started to recover measurably. I believe it’s not merely a correlation; I see it as THE proximate cause. Am I saying hard money CAUSES economic depressions? Why yes, yes I am. 

I wouldn't necessarily disagree.  Internal adjustments of prices, wages, and inflation are harder to re-set than exchange rates and other external adjustment mechanisms.

One thing you'll want to do immediately....separate ALL the coins and put them in their own containers or velvet pouches, but don't have multiple coins clinking around together in a plastic bag.  More wear-and-tear and more scratches and damage.

I'll leave it to the Small U.S. Denomination experts here, but at a minimum you should read the other threads in this section on what to do with a newly inherited coin collection.  It starts with getting the latest edition of A Guide Book To U.S. Coins, aka The Red Book.  It has prices for most of the coins if not all of them that are in the ballpark of fair/market value.

Silver coins... it's easy to figure out the metallic or bullion value based on the price of silver.  If they are in top-notch condition, they may or may not have numsimatic value, too.

Are you looking to sell all of them or maybe just sell some/most and start collecting yourself ?

On 2/25/2023 at 9:01 PM, VKurtB said:

As country after country went OFF their gold standard, their economies nearly instantly started to recover measurably. I believe it’s not merely a correlation; I see it as THE proximate cause. Am I saying hard money CAUSES economic depressions? Why yes, yes I am. 

Regardless, that's not my reason for seeing if there aren't interesting unseen letters, documents, correspondences, etc....of the kind Roger likes to start threads with.  OTOH, it's possible all the relevant ones were disclosed years/decades ago and were cited in previous books from Friedman/Schwart's A MONETARY HISTORY to others more narrowly focused on the gold standard.  Roger's showed us some really fascinating stuff, I'm just wondering if there's some more "color" on the back-and-forths. 

For instance, I was reading on a website that Dean Acheson, later a State Department biggie, was actually in the Treasury in 1933-34 and wanted nothing to do with ending the gold standard.  FDR actually used the weak gold position of the Fed against Hoover.  Interesting stuff.

On 2/25/2023 at 10:46 AM, RWB said:

Correct.

Is it up to some Mint higher-up to determine if the patterns survive for sale or to the Smithsonian ?  Does the engraver get to decide ?

Obviously, I'm thinking of the survival of most of the patterns of ASG.

On 2/25/2023 at 11:51 AM, Coinbuf said:

I would not be surprised if the mint used this die to strike circulation coinage once it had outlived its usefulness for proof coinage production.

Was that standard/allowed ?  I thought once the proof run was over, they'd destroy or remove the proof dies, however worn.

Maybe using worn proof dies to mint circulation coins was standard ?

This is directed at Roger and anybody else who looks at raw primary sources...do you think that either the Newman Portal or the National Archives still have unseen (or maybe unseen in decades) documents, letters, musings, telegrams, etc....on how government officials saw the Gold Standard after 1929, and especially 1932 onward as we headed into an election year and then FDR actually taking us off ?

I'm wondering if any of that stuff could be NEW as opposed to having already been picked clean since it's a pretty important part of our history.

Actually ordering that gold be turned in was a pretty radical step....also, the effect on other countries staying or going off their gold standards....international trade was drying up, they had to realize it wouldn't be good for that....did they run this by the Treasury and/or Federal Reserve.....if the whole reason was to replenish the gold at the Fed and up the money supply, why not just sever the link directly and have the Fed print high-powered money reserves ?

I bought a copy of the AMERICAN DEFAULT book by Princeton Press so I'm sure it has many useful footnotes and sources, and I'm also re-reading chapters in RWB's SAINTS book and some other stuff on that period. 

It really is fascinating....lot of stuff behind-the-scenes, that's what I'm trying to find.

On 9/4/2021 at 9:33 PM, RWB said:

Yes. Small size Ike dollars were struck in test batches. Destruction of the dies and test pieces is recorded.

None "survived" ?  Not even sent to the Smithsonian ?

On 2/25/2023 at 9:03 AM, J P M said:

If I have a labeled MS70  The experienced collector knows what is what, the disadvantage now days is it has turned into the slab grade is the true value.      

For some coins, yes...but let's not pretend that among even "experts" there is no disagreement on coins, plus among TPGs, too.

On 2/24/2023 at 12:04 PM, JT2 said:

I was thinking it but didnt write it....................I am in the same mind set....  Nothing after1964 should be slabbed.........  waste of time and money in my opinion.

It does have value:  protection of the coin...easier to view it and show it around....if it is a 70 or 69 people DO pay up for that.

Would I spend Big Buck$$$ slabbing dozens or hundreds of moderns ?  No....but a few favorites, probably.