GoldFinger1969

On 2/21/2023 at 10:17 AM, VKurtB said:

Not in MY world. I have bought from Heritage exactly ONCE in my entire career. The address they have for me right now is 5 residences ago. In fairness, though, Stacks Bowers is only one out of date. GC just got updated to current. I buy ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY from non-online back country Pennsylvania auction houses. When I go to shows, I’m “foreign” focused, cuz that stuff ain’t in Pennsylvania country auctions. 

For you, this works.  For those of us with less time (and $$$  ) we need to get specific coins, usually certified, to meet our needs.

On 2/21/2023 at 10:59 AM, RWB said:

This is a false statement. No gold was confiscated.

I was pretty sure that some of the sources I read said no compensation was given (like Switt's $2,000 loss).  I'll double-check and circle back.

If you VOLUNTARILY surrendered your gold, you got paid...but if they seized it ?  You're saying they'd still pay you ?

Was doing reading on the legal cases over the last week or so, maybe I got it mixed up.  I'll circle back to this in a few days if not sooner.

Roger, regarding the algorithim you employed to come up with population estimates for all the coins....is there a time when you would think it could be outdated or barring the presence of any surge of hoards distorting population totals it should still be good for years to come ?

Roger...in the "Moving Money" chapter (p. 434-435), you cited the example of a cashier in the SanFran mint who didn't reduce the denomination subtotals for a payout of $30 in gold coin.

How often did each mint make these kind of mistakes ?  We talking a few yearly, monthly, or what ?

Wow....my friend showed me some old CDN newsletter he had from the early-1990's.......he had pricing for a 1923 Saint.

In MS-65 condition, the coin was $1,500 in the early-1980's.....then it spiked to $15,000 in 1989-90 !!    Checking the price grid in the Saints book, Roger & HA agree with the general price move.

With 28,500 coins in MS63-64 but a big dropoff at MS65-66 to just 425 coins, you can see why today this coin trades at a rich numismatic premium to the price of gold, one that it didn't command in the early-1980's. It's also relatively more pricey compared to other coins that it was close to in price 40 years ago.

This is a classic example of condition rarity combining with an increased collector/registry base that pushes the price higher relative to decades earlier, one clearly not seen in the adjacent 1923-D prices then and now.

On 2/20/2023 at 5:08 PM, olympicsos said:

I knew about saints as the national collectors mint advertised a 1933 tribute coin on TV and there was publicity about how the 1933 DE was then the most valuable coin existing. Right then along with the artistry of Saint Gaudens, it’s easy to understand why this series is captivating. 

I think the CASUAL collector and CASUAL and INFREQUENT gold/silver stacker/collector like me might not be aware at all.  I'm just going by own personal experiences from myself, my family and friends, and business contacts. 

I agree with WC that a person who does coin collecting activity or reading WEEKLY or even MONTHLY is certainly likely to know about Saints and/or Double Eagles.  For myself, I could go a few YEARS without doing any buying or looking.

Not sure I should have been classified as a "collector" at that time.... but I'm just telling you my experience. 

On 2/20/2023 at 3:09 PM, VKurtB said:

I really don’t give a rip, 💩, or bust what’s happening in or around Heritage. That’s an infinitesimally small sliver of the hobby.

Maybe 15-20 years ago, but not know.  The online marketers DOMINATE this hobby nowadays.

On 2/20/2023 at 3:09 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m talking about central Pennsylvania, which probably has more collectors per capita than anywhere else in the country. Literally DOZENS of auctions, coin clubs, and local shows. There were over 75 public auctions with coins an easy drive from Harrisburg just in 2022. This is VOLUME. It’s also what counts. 

The demographic of Central PA is such that many people were into coin collecting from the 1950's - present.  So many of them are getting up there in age or have passed on.

I think that region might be a nice little niche today....I doubt it will be in 15-20 years.  European banks were once a source of fantastic hoards.  Today, not so much.

On 2/19/2023 at 3:26 PM, olympicsos said:

How many of them would rather collect MS66 CAC Saints if they could afford it instead of moderns? 

How many of them are even AWARE of Saints ?  Or Double Eagles in general ?

Lots of bullion buyers...lots of lower-end coin collectors.....might buy more expensive coins if less frequently IF they knew about them and had a long-term plan to accumulate.  I certainly do....but you have to like the coins to buy them every few years or maybe 1-2 annually, tops, instead of buying 5-15 coins of other types that cost less.

I didn't know about Saint-Gaudens DEs or DEs in general until 2009 when the Mint came out with the MMIX UHR.   I'm a pretty knowledgeable guy about history and finance but somehow the coins very existence fell between the cracks (even with 1 or 2 clients mentioning Saints when I gave them bullion dealers names like Blanchard).

On 2/20/2023 at 5:01 AM, olympicsos said:

That’s interesting. I wonder how many American Gold Buffaloes are technically AU, especially since now they’re put into rolls and do slide when being ejected out of the coining press. 

That gets into the whole debate we've had here and every other coin website has had.....is that CIRCULATION WEAR or BAG WEAR and which are we supposed to focus on as per the ANA Grading Standards or this whole debate between market vs. technical grading ?

On 2/20/2023 at 11:04 AM, olympicsos said:

This is a reason I don’t blame people for preferring slabbed .9999 gold. If a coin has to be removed from its mint capsule, let the experts do it. 

0.9999 ?  Wasn't aware anybody was going over 0.999. 

What causes spotting in a copper coin like a penny ?  

I believe for gold coins it's the copper alloy mixed in for pre-1933 gold coins; I'll double-check. 

On 2/19/2023 at 4:19 PM, Sandon said:

 

  The coin is a (matte) proof, of which 1,365 were reported minted, as opposed to 75,238,432 Philadelphia Lincoln cents made for circulation.  They are identified by their finely grainy finish, broad rims, and very strong strike. This coin, graded PF63 RB, presently lists $825 in the NGC Price Guide, whereas a MS 63 RB regular 1914 cent lists $90.

Without all or most of the black spots, what grade would it have gotten ?

On 2/17/2023 at 2:42 PM, World Colonial said:

Guess it just depends upon the timeframe for someone's outlook. Longer term, I'm quite confident these mintages are far above future demand. 

You mean like all the Proof and Mint sets of the 1960's and 1970's ?

On 2/16/2023 at 3:58 PM, World Colonial said:

US clad sales have declined about 85% from the peak, to about 600,000 in 2019 which was the last year included in my search.  There is still a long way down to go.

When was that peak, what year, WC ?

What makes you think we still have a long way down ?  Usually, down 85% is close to bottoming unless something is headed for zero. 

On 2/19/2023 at 1:31 PM, RWB said:

RE: Gold coin "softness."  Experiments and controlled measurements at the Royal Mint in the 1880s established that die struck gold coins had just a hard a surface as silver, and both were a lot better than copper. (See Roberts-Chandler, et al.) Unalloyed gold and most native samples are soft, but coin gold alloy is hard and striking actually increases the surface resistance to abrasion -- that is: a struck coin's surface is harder than that of the blank planchet from which it was made. The heavier a coin and/or the greater the distance it falls from press to receiving box, the greater the number and severity of surface damage.

Very interesting...so the 0.999 coins today are SOFTER than their counterparts like the AGE at 0.9167 fineness ?

Key date, rare or something ?

BTW, I am enjoying this discussion and back-and-forth....helps with gold coins in general and even though I have no collecting interest with $3 pieces it's interesting. 

On 2/19/2023 at 12:03 PM, Prethen said:

I'm curious to know why $3 gold pieces may have been more susceptible to this type of experience where the fields essentially get wiped out before seeing much, if any, circulation?

I'm going to guess that $3 pieces were more likely to be used in everyday commerce, unlike Eagles and Double Eagles which RWB has drilled into us were rarely used for business transactions (except LH DE on the West Coast from 1850-1880 where they were more frequently used).

Is that likely ?

On 2/19/2023 at 12:03 PM, Prethen said:

If the coins were technically graded for luster and not actual wear, it would seem that "true" AU and MS coins would be exceedingly rare.

This is where I really need to see 2 coins in-hand or see hi-res photos.  I want to know for 2 similar coins what is a break in luster and how visible it is.  

Wear is pretty easy to see -- it's rub on high points, more or less.  But luster BREAKS can be tough...if a coin maintains 90% of its original luster, are you/we going to see the 10% that is broken or weak or non-existent ?

Maybe someone has 2 gold coins similar year/type one with luster and one without.  That might help.

On 2/19/2023 at 12:03 PM, Prethen said:

Another interesting question would be, how would such a coin have survived to remain in that state (keeping their luster intact) when most/many of their 'brethren" were not so lucky. Perhaps those coins were the ones obtained directly from the Mint? How would they otherwise survive the bagged experience (maybe just being lucky and remaining at the top of the bag)? 

If Liberty's and Saints could survive maintaining all/most of their luster despite being bagged....I would think smaller $3 gold coins would, too...except I'm not sure they WERE bagged.  They may have gone directly to sub-Treasuries and banks for distribution.  I'm not an expert here, I'm drawing from other gold coin knowledge.

Were these coins bagged ?  Do smaller coins bagged lose luster more easily than larger gold coins ?   This is above my pay grade. 

On 2/19/2023 at 12:03 PM, Prethen said:

Second...the entire series had relatively very low mintages and their original strikes might reflect this. With the highest mintage around 20K-138K and much of the rest of the series well under 10K, it would seem that a large number of the strikes could come out more as brilliant (i.e. PL) rather than lusterous...yes?

Isn't PL easier for a larger gold coin with simple fields ?  It might be tough to create the conditions for a TPG to assign a PL grade on a relatively small coin, no ?

If anybody does the Chrome (or other browser) Incognito Window Fix for these forums to bypass getting stuck in I Didn't Ask To Be Registry Logged In hell ...let me/us know.

On 2/19/2023 at 10:59 AM, olympicsos said:

That is the real problem, I agree. At the same time with gold, there’s things tolerated at the MS level that wouldn’t be tolerated in other series, especially moderns. 

I guess you can say things are a bit more forgiving or lax with larger and/or softer coins.  That's where CAC can play a role.

If we're going by the naked eye -- and not a 5-10x loupe or magnifyer -- then a large gold coin (Saint or Liberty or even Eagle) which is composed of a soft metal is simply at a disadvantage compared to a smaller, harder metallic coin like a nickel or even a small denomination gold coin.

On 12/24/2022 at 9:22 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Looks like they are back, the PMG Forums!

I didn't even know about them until last year I think !!  Haven't been there in a long time, I'm gonna have to go back.

The Coin Section at NGC should have a tab at the top to remind us about the other sections !! 

On 2/18/2023 at 2:00 PM, bsshog40 said:

Even after a site maintenance,  the sign in process still hasn't changed. I guess this is an issue that ngc just doesn't care about!!! 

Or might be a bit tricky on their part. Since killing the existing Incognito Window (but NOT my main Chrome Window) solves the problem, it hasn't been a killer issue for me, BSS.

Try the Incognito Window in addition to your normal Window. 

On 12/15/2022 at 8:58 PM, bsshog40 said:

This seems to be a glich that has gone on for a long time. I go to the forum and it says I need to sign in. When I click log in, it takes me to the registry page which shows me logged in to. I have not visited the registry and definitely have not logged in to it. So I have to log out of that, go back to the forum page and then it will let me log in. This is very aggravating as it happens quite frequently.  Can something be done about this? 

BSS, what I have had to do is open a NEW incognito window in Chrome and login from there.  What is unusual is that my Login and PW are remembered there but I bypass that automatic registry login thing.

It has something to do with a software glitch, cookies, and other stuff that is beyong my pay grade.  But doing the Incognito Window thing has NEVER failed to get me back in.

Actually, since I have DOZENS of tabs open in my normal Chrome browser having the Incognito setup is useful -- I use it only for ProFootballTalk.com and my coin websites (NGC, CT, GC, HA, etc.).  So usually 4-8 tabs open.  If I have to kill the Incognito Window there's nothing critical like my normal Chrome Window where I have websites I can't remember (there are probably 30-40 tabs !!  ) plus where I left off.  Between the New Chrome and Windows 10, I haven't lost any of those webpages like I used to in the past without bookmarking all the tabs periodically.

I noticed that Windows 10 also automatically remembers your last-opened PDFs, Excel, and Word documents, FWIW.  Great improvements ! 

On 2/16/2023 at 4:48 PM, RWB said:

For overall utility in striking coins steel alloys are cost effective and easy to work. Steel also adapts well to surface augmentation. Other metals and certain ceramic-metal alloys are better for certain uses.

What do you want to bet that they will endure the higher cost for some exotic metals to strike some special coins in the future ?  I can EASILY see the U.S. Mint or other mints doing that.

"Super-reflective proofs struck with alumuninum or tungsten dies" -- I can see it.  

On 2/18/2023 at 10:35 PM, RWB said:

This is entirely reasonable for $1 and $3 gold. They were in demand from jewelers, especially in Britain, for ornaments due to design, low cost, and small size. If you look in Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915 you can learn about the US Treasurer's private stash of these, and what was done with them.

When you think about the phrase "as phoney as a $3 bill" you wonder how many Americans even realize that there was a $3 coin !!??