GoldFinger1969

563 since 2000 seems about right. But that's very few if you ex-out the 2008-09 crisis. Consolidation will help banks navigate Covid-19 losses and ZIRP.

Actually, very few going under....nothing compared to The Depression (8,000 in 2 years).....S&L Crisis (1,000 went under over a decade) or 2008-09 Financial Crisis (~450 from 2008-11).

I believe you are right, Gmarg....and it is still around (or its successor) today. But think about what you could do if you weren't sure about the prices on that dealer network back in 1989-90. All you could do was read articles in weekly/monthly newsletters....faxes.....phone calls. Today, you can see actual live auctions (Ebay, HA, SB, GC. etc.) in real-time or check what happened yesterday or over the weekend.

This was from an article in 1993 so it's 4 years later than the prices he quotes but you get an idea of the wreckage: "One of the basic realities is the undeniable fact that most coins are worth considerably less today, in the spring of 1993, than they were four years ago, as the market approached its last big peak in May of 1989. A check of the Certified Coin Dealer Newsletter, or Bluesheet, confirms this all too graphically. On May 26, 1989, the Bluesheet assigned a value of $555 to an 1880-S Morgan silver dollar certified as Mint State-65 by the Numismatic Guaranty Corporation of America (NGC). Today, that same coin is valued at only about $75. On May 26, 1989, the Bluesheet value for a no-motto Liberty Seated half dollar graded MS-66 by the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) was a whopping $39,000. Today, that coin is listed for only about one-third that amount. o On May 26, 1989, the Bluesheet assigned a value of $4,060 to a Saint-Gaudens double eagle graded MS-65 by NGC. Today, its value has dropped precipitously. My book, The Insider’s Guide to U.S. Coin Values, lists it at only $1,200."

I am 99.9% sure the investment pools never even made the funding stage. The sharp appreciation was front-running and when word got out (ironically, I believe the ANA or Central States Coin Show was about to commence) the air came out of the balloon. MS65 Saints had almost tripled in like 2 years or so. And back then, it was still newspapers and the old FNN (predecessor to CNBC). No internet...no social media...no email...no websites....no 24/7 news except CNN.

Wow, that's great Ross ! Happy readings ! Have you been an active buyer of Saints and/or other coins/stuff @ Heritage ? I've been an active bidder but haven't won any Saints via HA (won currency + other coins). The HA catalogs themselves are great resources, filled with information and great pictures. Got a few of them down at FUN though HA hasn't sent me any (yet) as I guess I am not considered a "heavy hitter" in their online rankings.

I wonder how much of the romance and desire to own Carson City Morgans is a result of all the Westerns on TV in the 1950's and 1960's that mentioned the place (i.e., Bonanza).

Well, when you do be sure to chime in on Rogers's Saints Double Eagle book thread and let us know what you see.

My understanding was those funds NEVER came into being, it was their pending likelihood that drove up prices bigtime in 1989 and/or 1990. I may even have an old article on it saved somewhere. Depending on how it is marketed...and to WHOM....and how many investors....accredited or not....you might have heavy 1-time and recurring annual fees. Is this a bunch of loosely-connected coin collectors or the public at large ? What if it is just family members ? Are you advertising ? OTOH, if you know 20 wealthy people and you just do it amongst yourselves, nothing to involve the state or federal regulators. Clearly, ML and KP were looking to create mass-marketed investment pools with hundreds if not thousands of investors. Agreed....you have to buy these because you LOVE COINS and/or you aren't really banking on appreciation (obviously, no interest or dividends). In my opinion, you have to ask yourself: if the coin investment loses 90%, will I suffer material harm ? If the answer is YES, then you can't do it.

Yes....and it doesn't matter if the Coin Partnership is comprised of dedicated coin collectors or folks with no interest in coins who are simply out to make a buck. Though the FORMER is better (see below, i.e., "strong hands"). I think the partnership format has appeal only to folks who have interest in high-end ultra-rare coins. I don't think you'd create one of these partnerships to pool assets to buy generic 1924 Saints. You want a 1927-D or a 1931-S or a 1932. WC...what makes you think "investors" are buying pre-1933 gold ? Have you seen articles or heard from dealers to that effect ? I take it you consider these flows more akin to SPECULATION than a long-term "investment", am I correct ? Yes, and this is because if you want prices to hold up and/or appreciate you have to have STRONG HANDS as we say in the trade. That means folks who have a COMPELLING reason to hold the investment. A partnership with 50 people in it only to make $$$ who will bail at the first headline saying "Coin Prices Plummetting" is not what you want. You want folks who are in it for the long haul and/or won't be shaken out to sell into a decline for panic-like reasons.

Gmarg, I think what WorldC is talking about is that ultimately even the folks putting up the $50K in your example have to be willing to buy coins or fractional shares of coins. And if others aren't, prices can drop. In your example at #4....the manager sells the assets/coins....who buys them ? He may have bought a bunch of Saints 50% off their highs or maybe he bought at the bubble. But either way, he has to find willing buyers. If it's a few million-dollar coins, his pool of buyers is more limited unless there are other fractional share partnerships. Everything you wrote is correct....BUT....it doesn't guarantee that the coins appreciate over time...or that even when the manager wants to get out, that he'll be able to. Let's just suppose he invests in a 1932 Saint (I need a rare coin for illustrative purposes, can be any rare coin you like). Let's say he bought it in a condition that costs $1,000,000 and he thinks he can now sell it after 5 years for $1.2 MM. But let's also say that for a variety of other reasons (deaths and inheritances, taxes, tired of owning it) a bunch of 1932 Saints get sold a few months before the partnership lock-up expires. Maybe the market even for his condition is no longer $1.2 MM -- maybe all the heavy hitters are satiated and bought their 1932's during the selling glut. So even though the partnership paid $1 MM and even though FMV a few months ago was $1.2 MM.....you can ONLY get $900,000 if you want to sell it RIGHT NOW. That's one of the quirks of coins in general and going for ultra-rare coins whose market can be impacted by only a few transactions.

Interesting.....did you bail on them because you wanted other coins or did you sense a price decline coming in what may have been one of your more expensive (bullion/numismatic) coins ? My experience is that even those who move on from Saint activity keep a few of their favorites.

The end-user or hobbyist end-demand theory is correct. But one thing that separates coins from stamps/baseball cards is that for many coins the precious metals content of some is inevitably tied to -- and dragged UP -- by moves up in PM's like gold or silver. Ultimately, stamps and baseball cards are just pieces of paper. At least with coins, Morgan dollars and Saint Double Eagles that are common go up or can be used as a bullion substitute when the prices of silver and gold move up. Other coins that are part-bullion, part-numismatic value can also move up to a degree. Very rare coins that are worth multiples of their intrinsic silver or gold value will clearly always need the collectors to move their needles, no doubt. FWIW, I know a few people who got into higher-end Saints and Morgans after initially just buying modern bullion gold and silver coins.

You work on a Sunday ?

That's on the conference sponsor. We have the same problem with our 2-day show where folks like to start packing up mid-day on Sunday. But when we have folks paying for a 1-day admission that day it's not the right atmoshphere to have folks cleaning up their tables. Dealers who insist they have no choice but to pack up early are given less favorable spaces so they are less visible. And we try and enforce no packing up until like 3 PM or so.

Punk, do you have any Saints or Morgans ? If not, what types do you have in quantity ?

As I recall, the dealers liked to advertise in specialty publications that had folks with some discretionary funds and who were somewhat cognizant of finance, economics, and precious metals (the 1970's being the decade of inflation). Readers Digest and other publications used to have them all the time.

Welcome !! Intermediate coin collector...on-and-off over the decades. I seem to take time off when I have $$$ and when I have time and no $$$, that's when I get more involved. I specialize in Saint-Gaudens and dabble in some modern commemoratives, Morgans, and bullion types.

Agreed....but some ultra-rare coins might be able to market themselves as such.

And thanks to you for your contributions above and beyond the book itself, Roger ! You and HA are to be commended because not only is the information and the book invaluable, but the LAYOUT itself and the topics covered for every year/mintmark make the book very user-friendly. Then there are the extra chapters on everything from The Gold Standared to Copper Spotting and their location in the book which really adds to the reader experience. As you know, I am re-reading certain sections based on my heightened interest in those parts as well as the back-and-forth discussion in this thred where I or others raised questions. I've also saved all the threads to make sure this thread survives any internet debacle. If HA is smart, they'll consider giving away a few copies of this book (and maybe other books they have published) as an enticement to new sign-ups and bidders in their auctions and also presence at coin shows (when that starts again). Net cost to them (way below retail) is a small price to pay for new and loyal customers. If they have a special Saint-Gaudens auction or a special Saints coin or just a lot of Saints going off on a particular auction, giving away the book as a free door prize or raffle rmakes sense (as opposed to an auction of a collection of Franklins or Barbers ).

You'd better re-post as it was a few pages back and some of us forgot it among all the other posts.

Thanks..... The 1st time, I read every single paragraph of every page. Hitting specific sections is a nice change-of-pace.

Outstanding, QA ! Get the book, start reading, then chime in. We'll debate points of interest and educate ourselves with the debate. I've already started to re-read sections here-and-there from the book. I may even read it cover-to-cover a 2nd time, but for now, I'm skipping around.

Some interesting items I re-read in the book: Didn't realize that the National Park Foundation commemorative of a female Indian headress with a different Saint-Gaudens Eagle on the reverse was an original pattern that ASG was experimenting with. I might get one of those coins. Still, I like Lady Liberty on the obverse of the Saints just the same. Does anybody know how the pattern codes (J1778) came into being ? Did ASG or Barber just give them that code name ? Wondering how they came up with it as opposed to Pattern #1 or #2 or #3. Chapter 2 "Apex of America's Gold Standard, 1907-1913" is really good reading.

Thanks, guys !!