GoldFinger1969

PCGS reports just over 5,100 1907 HR's and NGC just over 3,800. So about 8,900, making for just under 3,500 coins not accounted for. If you assume lots of crosses from PCGS to NGC and vice-versa (double-counting), then maybe 4,000 or 5,000 coins not accounted for. Could be more....maybe 6,000 or more. If the "unaccounteds" remain in private, "sticky" hands -- handed down by from family members to heirs -- that could account for the sticky and relatively high price of 1907 HR Saints. If a few hundred 1907 HR's were to hit the TPGs and market every year for the next decade or so and everyone knew they'd be coming out (with grades across the spectrum), my guess is you'd have a slow, steady drizzle downward in price. But I'm not sure how much.

They placed their hopes on the Maginot Line but the psychological damage to France from WW I not only led to their defeat in WW II but persists to this day, according to some. It is at the heart of the French willingess to "go it alone" ever since DeGaulle, as if they are atoning for their Vichy days.

Some more of the big collectors should have been cited. But Eilasberg is dead so why would he be on it ? Was the head of HA there ?

If they can sell any tangible assets, they absolutely should sell it and put the funds into a permanent endowment. Any rare coins sold in the future would create excitment as it changed hands, a bonus. Maybe a stipulation could be that the coins could only be sold at the annual ANA Convention auction held by the ANA or an auction house (like Legends or GC at FUN).

If you can find it, read William F. Buckley Jr.'s The Unmaking Of The Mayor.

I've thought that and said it for years, but I've always had people pooh-pooh that telling me that when you do it for a living it's 2nd nature to be able to grade ANY coin in the series among MANY TYPES in 10-15 seconds or less.

Wow.......

You mean that there are 100 coins, of all grades, available for sale online, from dealers, coin shows, etc...RIGHT NOW.......right ? But this coin may be considered unique because (1) you could consider each GRADE of the 1907 HR to be an individual coin by itself (or every 2-3 grade increments)...EFs....vs. AU's....vs. MS63's...vs. MS65's....vs MS67's...and (2) how many 1-ounce gold coins, U.S. double eagles are there historically compared to the much larger mintage for lower-denomination copper, steel, nickel, and other coins ? I do think that if there were a database on current holders of 1907 High Reliefs that it would prove fascinating to determine current pricing and demand trends.

Kurt, I believe RT was on the list.

Holding coins (and maybe art) takes on a different meaning in Europe than in the U.S. Many of the long-established countries (like France) have citizens who remember totally-wrecked economies and stock markets that went to zero or close to it. Newer countries remember being part of ancient empires and being parties to hyperinflation, civil wars, civil unrest, etc. You still have people who may own gold and/or Roosters who were told about the horrors of WWI from a parent or relative....and/or lived through WW II themselves. Lots also lived through communism and the breakup of the Iron Curtain, Yugoslavia, Austro-Hungarian Empire, Russian breakups, etc. European psyches can be different than ours, or even other Europeans. Military historian John Keegan wrote about how the trauma of World War 1 so paralyzed France -- which saw 4% of her population killed but close to 33% of all single, eligible men for marrying such that entire towns would eventually die from lack of eligibile future husbands for all the available women. 27,000 French died in a single day -- 1 day !!! -- in battle in 1914. Through it all.....France, nearly by herself, fought Germany and the Axis to a draw for 4 years. Just over 20 years later.....France folded in 6 weeks against the Nazis.

I voted for every name I know/recognize, which was only about 15 names. I suspect that if I collected longer and/or was more into the gossip and business end, I'd have known another 15-20 names.

Well said Roger....many of today's current collectors didn't or couldn't buy one in the early-1970's but now have the interest AND $$$ to buy one. Hence, the relatively high price (compared to other Morgans) of $300 - $1,000 for quality GSA Morgans -- but a price that is still affordable to many non-wealthy collectors or interested buyers.

Mark, who in your opinion is responsible for the "high demand" on the 3 types of coins you cite (feel free to focus on Saints since that's my area of semi-expertise ) ? Is it really HIGH DEMAND with regard to say, the Saints....or is it just PERSISTENT demand coupled with lack of supply? That's what we are seeing now with this housing boom in the suburbs....it's not that there's a huge influx from the cities, it's just that we are having a slight increase above the norm coupled with no increase in supply from the suburbs (if I can use a current example of high prices resulting from a slight bump in demand with no increase in supply). I always wondered if the bulk of the holders for the 1907 High Relief Saints is people who inherited the coins, since it seems somewhat unlikely (IMO) that 10,000 active coin collectors decided to buy one of the most expensive coins in fairly high grade condition. It's unlikely that non-coin collectors of today would want said coin, so why should folks from years or decades ago have wanted one, right, unless they were active coin collectors....OR...had inherited the coin. In the case of the Morgan GSAs, you probably had lots of adults and youngsters buy them in the early-1970's....many are just now realizing they can be sold for a nice price and/or many are dying and leaving them to heirs. So....Limited Supply (original buyers not selling, even if not coin collectors) plus Increased Demand (lots of current Morgan collectors) = Strong Demand & Well-Bid Pricing.

To be clear....PCGS and NGC were the first to slab ? Or one of those older outfits mentioned above beat them both to it ?

Well, considering that for even the more widely-collected and bigger coins (where grading should be easier) you have 1-2 grade discrepancies from time to time, I really think that grading coins 65.3 and 65.7 is a waste. Like figuring out GDP to the nearest million dollars. Besides, isn't that what CAC is for, to tell us which coins are A vs. B vs. C ? I do agree that number and depth of bag marks would be useful to have been quantified in the past. Maybe NGC and PCGS and the others can tell us for "normal" bag marks how many take a coin from 68 to 67 to 66 to 65 and then down the line (though I doubt this happens). It's not an exact number, but if you survey a bunch of 64's and 65's and 66's and 67's, you can probably arrive at cutoff or threshold levels where you see the grades cluster around. I definitely see the dropoff at the MS67 level with the Saints I see relative to MS65 where you can have 3-4 on each side or 10 bag marks and dings. As soon as you get to that MS66 or even MS66+ level, the fields and devices are alot cleaner.

Dena, curious..how many daily/weekly posts with the current layout vs. a few years ago with the old style ?

My area of expertise (if you can call it that ) is Saints and I can pretty easily tell the difference between a pair of "Uncirculateds" if one is a 64 or 65...and the other is a 67. Very easy to discern the difference. With numbers, you now have more information. Before the TPGs, you'd have confusion especially if a pair of coins was actually a 66 vs. 67 and you were a seller or buyer.

Wow, didn't know that, thanks PF. 10,000 coins today is nothing. I bet PCGS and NGC do that in a week.

Interesting that with a decade-long head start, they couldn't make bigger inroads but that both PCGS and NGC took off when they came into being in the 1980's.

Any quick suggestions for taking quickie pics with a smartphone (in my case, a Galaxy S9) ? I pretty much just use the default settings I use for all pictures. Sometimes I use that macro focus if I am taking it from less than 1 foot away. I never use the flash, BTW. Too much reflection and glare then.

That would be a good topic for an ANA or FUN or other coin convention.....something about "Alternative Gold Bullion Coins from Around The World." Outside of the major current bullion coins, I'm not aware of coins made 50 or 100 years ago. Wouldn't mind finding out about Roosters or Vatican Coins or Austro-Hungarian or British Empire coins and if they exist in sufficient size to be used as bullion subsitutes or are clearly numismatic selling at a premium (and if so, how much).

You wanted the ANA to get into the business and commerical side by grading coins ?

Right, but are they set-up as a 501(c)-3 ? They definitely qualify.

No books or lectures or other info on French Roosters ? Depending on how long they were minted, should be some stuff out there.

Quintus, what coins do you largely collect ?