GoldFinger1969

Any quick suggestions for taking quickie pics with a smartphone (in my case, a Galaxy S9) ? I pretty much just use the default settings I use for all pictures. Sometimes I use that macro focus if I am taking it from less than 1 foot away. I never use the flash, BTW. Too much reflection and glare then.

That would be a good topic for an ANA or FUN or other coin convention.....something about "Alternative Gold Bullion Coins from Around The World." Outside of the major current bullion coins, I'm not aware of coins made 50 or 100 years ago. Wouldn't mind finding out about Roosters or Vatican Coins or Austro-Hungarian or British Empire coins and if they exist in sufficient size to be used as bullion subsitutes or are clearly numismatic selling at a premium (and if so, how much).

You wanted the ANA to get into the business and commerical side by grading coins ?

Right, but are they set-up as a 501(c)-3 ? They definitely qualify.

No books or lectures or other info on French Roosters ? Depending on how long they were minted, should be some stuff out there.

Quintus, what coins do you largely collect ?

Do we have a clear persistent pricing anomaly where AU58's are higher for a coin that low-60's Mint State ? Or do we just have a flattening of price between the two levels for coins which are plentiful across the spectrum ? Market demand, not grade or coin quality, is causing the pricing anomaly we are discussing. Some AU 58's (maybe even 55's) look better than MS60/61/62's. Not sure it's the TPGs fault, it's just the market adjusting. The TPGs did their jobs....now the public is setting the price, all information now known.

When you have time, please elaborate. Are you saying that you don't want coins that never circulated (Mint State) but are (heavily) dinged and might LOOK circulated to NOT grade Mint State ? You're not saying consider dings and bag marks circulation wear, are you ? I know things aren't perfect with the "kink" at AU58 vs. Low Mint States.... but if a coin really is Mint State and lots of marks, that's what the low-60's are for. Anybody seen any AU58+ grades ?

Might not be any/many coins that are legit MS60's and 61's left to grade....anybody with a known Mint State but heavily dinged probably knows it's not getting a grade worth a nice price if it grades below MS62 or MS63. So they might not submit it.

They are 501(c)-3, right ?

With regard to objective standards and quantifying each grade level (or at least providing a range).....as most of the coins I collect are either large moderns, Saints, or Morgans....it's easier for me to visualize grading (even though I am still a novice, IMO) than if I were looking at dimes and pennies and other small coins. Don't need to use magnifiying lens to see stuff on the fields and devices. Which is nice.

Maybe, but I think it's pretty close. You might be right about the definitional difference....if a coin is struck and has a blemish from the striking process (which admittedly is extremely rare today)....I think it can grade an MS70 as opposed to a perfectly struck coin which is bagged or handled such that it gets 1 or 2 dings.

Well, we know it's Mint State (never circulated).....65 means (to me) no major gouges on either side, and no more than 4-5 dings or scuffs in each of the fields. If by "objectively defined" you mean have the TPGs or even ANA ever said that you can only have so many of this or that marks before you grade lower....no, they have never done that. I think they've only "objectively defined" MS70 -- perfect, no marks of ANY kind. We can probably quantify how many marks are allowed on each side by sampling a few and then maybe count them up. Won't be exact, but you should have a range.

MS65 is the lowest of Gem Mint State. It's usually the level that most want in premium coins because it is halfway to the mythical 70 grade along Mint Way. It's the difference between the gold price and the Saint-Gaudens coin. Then it's expressed as a % of the coin price.

Kurt, maybe there have been some coins for a particular coin type that did see persistent AU58's selling for MORE than MS60/61/62's..... but that's a quirk/function of investor demand based on aesthetics. Mint State should rank HIGHER than About Uncirculated, grade-wise. MS60-62 SHOULD price above AU58's -- but maybe not. If investors prefer the look and appeal of an AU58 (with modest wear and high point friction) over a heavily dinged but NO wear and NO high point friction, I think the TPGs have done their job, the grading standards have been adhered to....it's just that folks want the AU58. I've been very clear on these pages that given that it's already a 5-figure purchase, whenever I buy a 1907 Saint High Relief I am definitely going with an AU58 over an MS60, 61, or even 62. Above that, I might prefer MS63's and higher -- but then you are talking about serious increase in $$$ relative to AU58's.

FYI, you can delete the graphs if you just wanted to respond to my text. Just makes the thread easier to follow if big klunky graphs aren't recreated and quoted. I don't know who put the data together but it's a simple chart with 3 data points with no timing or data bias. I detect a couple of trends from the chart, which aren't 100% hard-and-fast but generally apply (maybe with a lag): Premiums jump in anticipation of a rise in gold prices and/or Saints (late-1990's, 2008-11) If the gold price rise stalls....then the price of Saints flatlines (obviously) and the premium tends to fall much much harder and faster. You have a 3rd Derivative of volatility at work: gold is a volatile commodity.....Saints trade on gold plus the numismatic premium....and the premium can rise or fall faster than both. Premiums are sticky to the downside (folks want to believe gold will rise again and/or buyers/dealers in Saints don't want to lose $$$).

Saint-Gaudens Premiums vs. Gold Price: I thought I had posted this in this thread, but I guess not.

Kurt, if the AU58 has the slightest wear and/or loss of luster....but pretty clean fields and devices....then it is by definition a circulated coin and grades lower -- and thus, SHOULD sell for less $$$ -- than ANY low-60's Mint State graded coin which can have lots of bag marks but which NEVER circulated. That said, unless I win the Lotto any time soon , if/when I decide to buy a 1907 Saint High Relief, I am probably going to go for the AU58 which looks better and is cheaper than MS60-62 coins, the only others I might be able to afford.

I think you make some excellent points, Ronnie. While I have not seen AU-58 coins priced higher than low-60's coins, I have seen a bit of a "kink" in pricing at that level. You are more likely to see a higher price at 58 or a very narrow gap with paper, IMO.

Lots of AU-58's look nicer than low-60's MS coins. And it's even more true when dealing with paper currency and the off-center margins look terrible for some 60's-graded paper vs. lower-graded paper with better eye appeal but hidden warts.

Agreed....I know that we had a lengthy debate on this over on CT some time back....technically, lots of dings do NOT take you out of MS grading. They are NOT "wear."

If ANA is AGGRESSIVELY defending my rights as a coin collector and numismatist and going after anti-bullion, anti-collecting laws.....then I am HAPPY to pay up and pay for quality. I know lobbying and legal takes $$$. You don't have to match Silicon Valley paychecks and maybe employees working for ANA are or were coin collectors who will take a "hometown discount." But you won't get quality for $25/hour....you have to pay some nice 6-figure salaries. JMHO.

What does "SE" stand for ?

What were most of the coins that looked like 70's but really were 69's guilty of -- did they have a common blemish ? What did the TPGs miss on the 67's ? Those had to have 2-4 blemishes.....not one....could they really have missed them ?

Are you saying that a Saint-Gaudens (or other larger coin, for our purposes) that APPEARS to have "wear" but in fact was only dinged around in a bag.....you're not saying it should be graded AU just because it may LOOK like most AU's, are you ? A heavily-scuffed, dinged coin that does NOT show wear on the high points should still be graded Mint State, IMO. My understanding of grading is this is acceptable.