GoldFinger1969

I see that alot from the veterans with decades of experience so I know where you are coming from. As someone not quite a hardcore numismatist, I go with the flow at times.

When dealing with a more expensive coin like a Saint, it was tough enough cost-wise just to buy some of the years and mintmarks, let alone die varieties. And I think until Roger's magnus opus there was no detailed research on the die varieties (I don't know of any myself but maybe there was in the numismatic journals). Don't recall any die variety talk in any other books or on message boards. But now we have people talking and discussing and looking for some of these die varieties and other differentiators (i.e., long vs. short rays).

How do you know someone submitted their coin 28 times trying to get an upgrade ? I'm confused.....thx. I just checked RWB's Saint DE book. He has alot of commentary on the 1920's, 1st coin minted after they stopped striking in 1916 for WW I. Using the (dated) price guide in the book, the 1920 in MS65 sells for $90,000 or so from 2012-15 but an MS-63 was only about $2,000 or so, give-or-take. So there's probably a big spike to MS-64 esp. with a "+" or CAC.

FYI....some Saint-Gaudens, nice grades, on auction tonight @ Heritage.

1907 HIGH RELIEF AUCTIONS: FYI, a bunch of 1907 HR's are being sold next Friday November 20th by Heritage.

I understand why passions can get hot especially when $$$ are involved in grading, cracking-out, etc. Still, everybody benefits from rigorous debate. If every post could have been made by you....if there are no disagreements....how can you learn ? Why come here ?

How about a brief summary ? Why did it take so long for the discovery...who made it in 1891....was it publicized ?......maybe nobody cared about die varieties other than mint marks back then....is this a VAM variety thing ?

Good point.....and BETTER than MS60-62's. But yeah, you want a really nice-looking AU-58 (I've seen a few). Or you can just ante up for one of the CAC coins. Regrettably (price-wise), the decent-looking AU-58's -- like most coins at an inflection grade -- have been submitted for and received the CAC designation which raises the price. I guess the good news is that the price is lower than the same coin with CAC 12 and 18 months ago, even though it raises the price on a straight-TPG graded coin without it. Saw an AU-55 CAC a few months ago, can't remember where. I think it was GC.

I thought they all wanted to be together but maybe a veteran of these shows or an actual dealer can chime in. The place was so big -- the OCCC where FUN is held -- that as a 1st-timer I was overwhelmed the first day, not finding anything of interest to me and walking and scouring the aisles haphazardly. By the 2nd day I had a plan and was alot more efficient. When you are used to coin shows with 30-50 dealers and maybe 75-100 tables, seeing 600 dealers and 1,000 tables or whatever was at FUN can be intimidating. It was for me on Day 1 !

FYI.....AU 55's must be under $10K, since AU-58's are just above it (including bp). CAC adds about 20% on average. Buying opportunity, IMO.

It would also be a good anti-counterfeiter measure. The costs have come down....we have 4K or 8K or other super-scan capability that you could do with all coins or maybe just those over $1,000 or $100 or whatever threshold you want.

We can have strong disagreements about coins or other things....just keep it civil. And don't make attacks personal or go way off on off-topic tangents (though sometimes they are relevant to the OP/thread). For instance...I started a thread on Roger's Saint-Gaudens book....but at times, we discuss specific Saint coins and not the book itself. I have no problem with that. Even if we segued into a Saints and Morgan comparision, a few posts on Morgans is not going to offend me in a thread originally meant to discuss a Saints book.

What's PMD ? Never heard of the "Full Klingon" description before.

I wish there were hi-res scans done by a computer or today's detailed super-cameras that the TPGs used to correctly ID submitted coins.....bank the photos...and then prevent re-submissions.

Yes, good point Mark....reflectivity wasn't a hallmark of Proof status back then, it was the satin or matte finish.

Maybe the whole problem would have been avoided if the TPGs just called them PL -- Proof Like ? The whole thing with the satin and matte finishes was very interesting but confusing to a modern investor because with today's technology (really going back decades) the Proof designation is clear because proof coins are easily determined by a super-high shine. A modern Proof coin vs. a high-quality business strike -- the difference is clear. I'm not sure that you can tell the difference between the "Proofs" and high-quality strikes quite as easily with coins from the early-1900's like Saints. Maybe to a trained eye or collector. But anybody can tell the difference, IMO, with modern coins with Proof vs. regular (business) strikes, even when both are Superb Gem Quality.

I'm not a registry guy, but I understand that this involves high-powered dealers and buyers....and the impact that cracking out coins and getting them a higher grade means. Biggest impact to me is that it means that the population data can be totally screwed up because of "double counting." I wish NGC and PCGS would work together to eliminate that problem. It benefits no one.

Checking out all the auction websites ? I'd normally say the Big 3 Coin Shows in early-2021 are a great shot at finding them, but who knows how many of them come off.

I get it.....and I don't like it. Be transparent. If you are upgrading, and being honest, you have nothing to hide. Thanks for the update.

I'm loving the unlimited LIKE function !

I just assumed those were bag dings that hit a very sensitive area -- the face. No ?

For anybody with the book.....Mark's excerpts above on proofs is from Page 73 of Roger's book and the entire Pro vs. Con Debate on Proofs is Pages 73-80. Fascinating stuff, regardless of where you stand. Thanks for chiming in, Mark and Roger !

From my 1970 Red Book, the premium was well over 100% (though the grade for the proof isn't listed). From what I have seen, it's 20-30% of late on a larger dollar base.

Definitely agree, Ebay is the Schlitz or Budweiser of coin acutions. HA is more like an imported craft beer or upscale liquor. Wasn't aware of this change, thanks. Most of what I bought on Ebay, coin and currency, was < $100. I think I bought some Silver Certificates for like $10 or so (maybe less) including S&H. If there are now minimum fees sellers may have to package multiple items together. I'll pay $12 for something nice if it really should only sell for $5 but I won't pay mid-$20's. At FUN, there was a budget section but I believe you weren't forced to go there, they just had about 20-25 dealers who all wanted to congregate together for those who came to FUN with small $$$. Agreed....at FUN, most of these dealers had stuff that wasn't graded. I think the people buying these coins are sufficiently knowledgeable that they can judge the quality on their own.

Interesting....good catch....I'll have to see if Roger covers this in the book.