GoldFinger1969

1908 No Motto Hoard: Was re-reading the outstanding section on the 1908 No Motto Wells Fargo hoard in Roger's book. Interesting....the coins were initially offered in MS-65 quality for $1,160. Spot gold averaged about $330 per ounce and an Uncirculated Saint DEs (doesn't say what grade -- MS63 ?) was about $375. The price guide for that Saint-Gauden year included in the book says that the MS-60 sold for $490, the MS-63 for $540, and the MS-65 for $1,150. Since the price guide MS-65 price matches up well with the initial price for an MS-65 Wells Fargo, maybe the other prices are off a bit since you'd have to go down to AU's to approach $375. Regardless....buying the Wells Fargo or regular No Motto at MS-65 quality entailed paying a huge premium (350%) to spot gold. Today, you can buy a 1908 No Motto MS-65 for about $2,400 or about a 30% premium to spot gold. It's counter-intuitive, but when the absolute price is CHEAP the relative price is EXPENSIVE. At these times it paid to buy spot gold for more price leverage and wait to pay the higher price for the Saint later on.

Can a veteran here give me their thoughts on The Big 3: ANA vs. Long Beach vs. FUN ? In terms of overall attendance, number of vendors, "enthusiasn", trends the last few years and last 10-20 years. The one advantage that FUN has is that all the collectors in the Northeast who are in the cold of winter get to go down to Florida for a few days in January.

Not familiar with them, story ?

I get cutting back on expenses and I see how going to shows can add up. You clearly DO NOT need to go to them if you are a dealer as often as you did 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. As someone who went to his first non-local show only this year (FUN in January), I had a blast. Yeah, it probably cost me $1,000 before I spent a single dollar but I thoroughly enjoyed it.

If they went out the back door, then they should have been seized as per the bogus arguments surrounding the 1933 Saints.

I think everybody is going to bank on kick-a** attendance and vendor support in 2022.

Even if you don't have the coins, the S-G DE book is fantastic reading. Year-by-year in-depth analysis of each mintage, plus special sections on lots of topics gold-related from 1907-1933.

I'm sure if you can't find an autographed copy that Roger would be happy to sign it sometime in the future if you two should meet. But I'll let him speak for himself. Not sure you are interested in the coins, but have you considered purchasing his Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle book ?

I thought it was a Saint, but the 1907 High Relief. The 1933's need a rescue operation from Fort Knox. Emailed some woman named " Pusssy Galore" the other day, awaiting a response.

What do these software programs offer, above and beyond my homemade Excel Spreadsheet with a few key columns that I created ?

What's the answer, I honestly don't know !!??

Eliasberg is one of the most famous coin collectors given his extensive collection and longevity. I would think a coin from his collection matters -- isn't that why NGC and/or PCGS sometimes put collectors on the labels ?

How many "coins" are we talking about ? It's a penny-Sacagawea combination mistrike, right ?

I think you are right, Mark....I think one of the dealers told me that.

SP is "special proof" -- right ? I think that 2013 Reverese Enhances ASE got the SP rating from PCGS....I can't recall if NGC gave it an MS or SP rating. Gotta check.....

Where IS the Isle of Man ? Also, is there an Isle of Woman ?

While you're on the call with the SS, ask him if the SS, Treasury, or Mint still adhere to the opinion of that Treasury official in the 1960's who said that seizure of all the patterns, Liberty Nickles, and other accidental releases (those not "officially" released) etc....was LEGAL. I forgot his name but can look it up.

Compared to the frauds out there, the accidental release of some Sacagawea Coins (how many ?) doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that will bring down the coin collecting hobby. This "coin" is a mistrike.....a double-strike of the Sacagawea Dollar and Lincoln Penny, is that right ?

Are you talking about crack-outs ? At times it's legitimate, at other times it's a game. Re-submitting a coin a dozen times in hopes of getting a higher grade at a price inflection point is unseemly, IMO. But it's not against the law. You just hope that the situation mentioned in that infamous Franklin Half Thread and others like it are the exception and not the norm.

And so in the last few weeks we have a couple of investment firms buying Collectors Universe (CLCT) for 5-times the price a year ago (probably for the collectibles business) and this BARRON'S piece on investing in artworks: https://www.barrons.com/articles/investing-in-art-looks-profitable-on-paperbut-looks-can-be-deceiving-51605914355

You wrote a bit eerily about what was going on and the end it with the "value" of CLCT -- could you perhaps gives us a bit more color here in this thread ? Thanks....

Yup...and the allegations against Martoma were very questionable. I forgot the details, but it wasn't a slam-dunk case. Never forget that the SEC wanted to send Ray Dirks -- of Dirks vs. SEC (1982) -- to go to jail for "insider trading." He exposed a fraud....was a hero...was thanked by the SEC and Feds....and then told to pack his suitcase, he was going to jail for 15-20 years. Only a 6-3 SCOTUS decision that controls to this day saved him. Got to sit next to Ray years ago at an analyst dinner -- nice guy.

He never faced a permanent ban, the sanctions applied only to SAC Capital. Insider trading violations are VERY tough to prove. I suspect that was why the fine was so high -- though it was higher than I ever thought it would be (Drexel Burnham Lambert, an entire company, got fined only $600 MM). The SEC often has an expansive view of "insider trading" and they often get shot down by the courts, including the SCOTUS.

This probably means that they'll have the biggest best FUN in 2022. I know myself even if the virus had disappeared I wasn't sure about going and if I did, wouldn't have much to spend. Hopefully a year from now I'll have some serious $$$ saved.

OK that's plausible....but we would never send working dies or currency plates for U.S. coins or currency overseas...I think that is what Insider was implying. Blanks, I understand....but not from-the-Mint official U.S. dies/plates.