GoldFinger1969

Best way to thank Roger is to plug his books.

Roger, you've seen the gold and silver commemoratives produced by the National Park Foundation in honor of Augustus Saint-Gauden, right ? They came out a few years ago...some in high relief, some ultra-high relief. They created the Winged Liberty and also the Indian Head coins with unique obverses and reverses. They were all based on the Judd patterns that you went into detail in the book. Just wanted to know your thoughts on them. I've bought a few of the silver ones.

Yeah, I looked at the pictures in your High Relief Chapter and the potrusion looks like it could amount to that. I had forgotten you included some great examples of the Fin vs. Flat in that chapter. Good job !

Really ? What was the tolerance allowed on the low-end ? If the wire fin got worn, heck even if the entire wire fin disappeared, it doesn't look like it could be more than 1-2% of the entire weight of the coin. But maybe I'm guestimating wrong.

Chile has (active) volcanoes ?

Next coin show I go to I want to look at a Wire Rim and Flat Rim side-by-side. Pics don't do justice but I'll try some HiDef views and hopefully close-ups stay sharp.

Right, Roger....I thought the split was 2/3rds Wire and 1/3rd flat ? Your book I believe notes that once the production was fixed the wire fin disappeared and they were all flat. But all the labels with WIRE or FLAT do so beause before your book and research some thought it really was a different type of coin instead of a production error that was fixed by Leach as you noted. Nope, and over the last few years I agree with his price observations for all but the ultra-high end. I just think his pricing was off a bit and was looking for more color on a surge in supply of 1907 HR's MS63-65. No articles on that, but maybe it was something talked about amongst dealers. This could be something where you have "creeping supply" -- not a flood, just a slow trickle -- and then when the price decline is big enough you have folks wake up in another year or two or three and say "Wow, look at the drops !" and then you see the articles in CoinWeek and other publications.

Doug Winter, a specialist in gold and double eagles, wrote this in CoinWeek when discussing 2020's Hot and Not stuff. For "trophy coins" he said this: In 2019, an average quality PCGS MS63 1907 Wire Edge High Relief $20 typically sold for around $20,000. In late 2019/early 2020 a substantial hoard of High Reliefs in MS63 through MS65 came onto the market and prices dropped to $14,000-15,000 by the middle of 2020. Prices rose slightly towards the end of the year but these are likely to remain flat in 2021. https://coinweek.com/us-coins/classic-us-gold-coins-whats-hot-and-whats-not-2021-edition/ Does anybody have any comments on this ? I agree with the general thrust of 1907 HR Saints falling in price, but I was unaware of any "hoard" or even a floof of MS-63 through MS-65's suddenly hitting the market all of a sudden (although my previous comments about demographics and inheritors/estates selling coins from original or 2nd-hand owners would be increasing). I also would say that MS63's were going for a total price closer to $18,000 and MS65's closer to $25,000 - $30,000 (going off the top of my head). I was tracking the prices pretty closely for a while and one can always check the internet for actual sales prices.

Does that have the 1933 Saint-Gaudens listing ?

My Lighthouse holders are good for PCGS and NGC. Don't have any ANACs or ICG.

I would have loved it. Maybe the idea just needs time, Roger.

Agreed....I certainly am aware that FUN may be working year-to-year with no financial safety net and they may not be in a position to comp many individuals or organizations. My understanding is that a table/booth at FUN might run $1,000 - $1,500 for the first 3 days. Not sure if that is what FUN charges or if that is what OCCC charges FUN. Nonetheless, I think such an expenditure would be well worth it. And I wouldn't mind either being charged a nominal admission fee or having a donation jar to keep such a panel discussion going in the future. Of course, as we said in another thread, a small endowment is what is really needed to help fund new initiatives and give them a bit of financial leeway each year.

I totally disagree. The books in question are among the most popular coin series -- Saints, Morgans, Barbers, Franklins -- that we purchase and collect. You must have reached a rare dunderhead on the FUN committee. They have some very obscure talks there which I am sure are of interest to niche collectors. I don't see how they wouldn't think that someone who authored RED BOOKS like you or Bowers or your book on Saints wouldn't be of interest. The Morgan talk by Randy Campbell was very well attended at FUN 2020. I wouldn't mind an author, a collector, and a dealer on a panel discussion for a particular coin. Missed opportunity....

Very short-sighted. My club makes tables available at cost or we give them away for nothing ($400 for the weekend cost to us) to other, smaller clubs or other astronomy-related non-profits. The conversation table would have been very well-received, IMO. Some people at this site and over at CT have given talks at FUN. I don't know if they were paid or comped or what.....but it definitely added to my enjoyment at my 1st FUN last year. Maybe next time I go I'll put in a plug for your idea. I like the idea of being able to buy some coin books from the authors or from one of the big supply/book sellers there....get it autographed....and maybe see a talk or two by the authors with some Q&A from the audience.

I have no problem with that....higher-ups had to be told at some point, if gold was exchanged for cash. If Saints were exchanged for modern gold coins, no-harm no-foul, but that probably required approval from higher-ups. I guess if they didn't give it, then that would require secrecy. Of course, at some time when the bags are opened folks would know that classic gold got swapped out for newer coins. BTW Roger...on the label question I wasn't implying you had a say in it. I think you got confused or my type was confusing. When the TPG's create labels, they sometimes will add famous collectors names (i.e., Duckor, Eliasburg, Simpson). See below. I thought that some of the patterns and the 1907 Extremely High Relief Saint might have the names of some of the government officials who originally owned them if the lineage could be established. I actually tracked down a catalog featuring a sale of Teddy Roosevelt coins. But I haven't seen any labels with Barber or Roosevelt or others from the 1907'ish or later time periods where they took possession of the coins.

Well, Heritage partnered with Roger Burdette to put out a 600-page book on Saints so there's that. I'm curious what a Goldberg or Stacks or Superior catalog might have especially pre-2000. THOSE might have commentaries or insights that aren't online or in print. Nothing blockbuster-wise, but interesting observations, auction or sales prices, etc.

Have you gone to FUN either on your own or as a presenter ?

Ron Gillio was a bit secretive on some of the details on his 1908 No Motto Saints hoard....other hoard finds lack details, too. I wonder if these "contacts" within the banks that had the hoards were maybe paid some $$$ and they don't want that to come out ? Maybe they were even "bought" by an equal number of modern day gold coins ?

Well, I checked the HA FUN 2020 catalog that I have against the online commentary for the 1927-D Saint-Gaudens and it matched word-for-word....the only additional extra in the catalog was a picture of a letter from one of the owners of the coin in the 1940's. I also checked the verbiage from a 1927-S Saint -- the same. So it appears no additional insight or commentary from having the printed catalog. Still, glad I have it and don't have to worry about anything lost online or downloading it myself. Whether other auction houses put their commentaries online since 2000 or so and whether they match up word-for-word I don't know. If I buy any non-HA catalogs, I'll let you all know. For sure, older catalogs -- pre-2000 -- are the most likely to have information that didn't make it onto the internet in some part.

Yes....complete collections of obscure coins or foreign or ancient coins...something where you won't find Red Books or others on them. Or if someone dumps a huge amount of MSDs or Saints, that would be worth having since you'd probably get information on some of the coins not available in the current book series on them. I believe that for Heritage, most of their information might be repeated on-line. When I get a chance, I'll double-check and report back. But I am pretty sure that some of the stuff in the FUN catalog was not on the website when the 1927-D Saint got auctioned. Plus, for some stuff, always good to have a print catalog -- you never know when something disappears off the web archives or is downsized.

Seems the catalogs are really useful for obscure or really niche coins. Since my favorites are Saint-Gaudens, Liberty DE's, and Morgans....I have book options for more information on the series.

That's awesome.....wonder if they have any unique commentary or writings on Saints or 1907 High Reliefs ?

I actually just bought a couple of catalogs on Ebay hoping for some new information on coins. Will let you all know if I got my moneys worth.

PF, for me, getting a few of the FUN catalogs last January was illuminating. The thing was, I wasn't sure they were for anybody attending their auctions or only high-end bidders. So I grabbed a few and put them in my backpack. The World Currency and U.S. Coins catalog ones are OK, nothing to want to get every year....but the Platinum Night Purple Book focused on the auction of the Duckor 1927-D Saint (did you attend ?) was definitely a keeper for me. Most of the information is on the HA website but it's nice to have it in print, too.

Cited alot today ? Wow...what coin(s) did it focus on ? Surprised an auction catalog from 1927 would be cited today except in footnotes detailing a coin or type of coin's price trend. Where was the bidding -- Ebay ?