JTO

I have been here for a goodly period of time and am about to turn 61 and collecting more than 50 of those years.  I like the pictures of the new system as it feels like a virtual Whitman / Dansco album.  That said, in a prior time, I worked my way through school as a freelance photographer.  I had an infuriating time trying to learn how to crop a circular coin.  When ever I searched the web on how to crop a circle from a photo I would windup in crazy-town with "Crop Circles and UFO's".  But now that I have figured how to crop a circular image (coin), I really enjoy the posting and reviewing of my photos.  I miss some of the functions of the old system like the data on cost, purchase location... but maybe they will bring them back in an update.

Two things:  1) the how to enter coin data is only in the old control panel not the new and 2) NGC may be the new ANA registry either that or the ANA is stunningly slow.

My two cents and a recent photo,

John

Daniel Carr is a gifted artist and engraver.  His credits run from designing statehood quarters to designing and making fantasy tokens/coins.  He is very careful to avoid breaking federal law so...  Each U.S. "Fantasy" coin that he makes is made on a genuine U.S. coin of the same type employing a surplus Denver Mint coining press.  When he started he prompted quite the discussion at the US Secret Service but...  Because the coin he strikes is struck on an original monetized coins the "fantasy" coin is not a counterfeit but a genuine coin that has been modified, i.e. Hobo Nickels.  So the Peace dollar that you hold was made on a genuine Peace dollar and can therefore be argued to be a altered U.S. coin.  He had to put the double date MCMXXI (1921) and Arabic 2021 to avoid counterfeiting the Peace MCMXXI high relief pattern.  By placing the 2021 on his coin it cannot be mistaken with the real pattern.  Each coin comes with legal language about how it is not intended nor should it be used to represent a genuine US Mint emission.  The 1964-D Peace Dollar is one of my favorites, how could he make it?  1) Officially no 1964-D Peace dollars exist, all were melted.  (That is had for me to believe but that is the official mint story and they are sticking to it.)  2) Just in case a real 1964-D Peace dollar pops up, his D mint mark is re-punched. 

Love or hate what he does, he does what he does extremely well.

John

Seems to be post mint defacing to me.  The only plausible mint defect, in my mind" is an under weight, thin planchette with after mint "adjustments".  But... the "Monticello" is well struck.  I say Nickel, Belt Sander, rough abrasion then voila. 

My 2 cents,

John

I agree with what's been said so far.  He meant marks on the reverse from New Orleans and Carson City, with a faux Mint Marks, look silly.  But, worthless?  No.  They will always be worth the price of the silver bullion from which they were made.

John

PS for Chrisinjesup from a prior posting thread,  I am a surgeon and worked at both the VA Directly and through the University of California.  If had the privilege of training many active duty military surgeons.  I fully support that only the care of our active duty troops but more importantly the critical physical and mental health care responsibility that our country owes to the veterans who have served and returned.  Veterans should have the opportunity to get care in the private sector if it's better but this should not be used as some money graft by the private sector to once again abuse our veterans.

Thank you again for your service,

John

Dear ChrisInJesup,

First, thank you for your service to me and everyone in the country.

This is my Mint to TPG story.  I have very mixed emotions about submitting coins from the Mint.  I dutifully collected each first spouse proof as it came out from the Mint.  I waited I had the complete collection (prior to the Barbara Bush coin) and hand carried the coins to Florida to the FUN show.  That was 41 coins, amounting to 20.5 ounces with a price at the time of roughly$1300 per ounce for a total value of roughly $53,000.  My thought was without much money on the line I submitted the coins on the first day of the show for "show grading" at full price. Starting with Washington and ending with Regan I took each capsule and placed it in in a flip, then placed the flips in chronologic order, made a sticker for each flip with a label maker and filled out two sheets with each coin ins proper order.  (you know what is coming) Sooooo...

1) On the final day of the show no coins and the home office (just miles away closed) and no answer as to where they were or why I would not get what I paid for.

2) I finally gave up and flew home and awaited the outcome, better correct that today, but...

3) On Monday they had found the coins and were doing "expedited" grading (NO REFUND ON THE SHOW GRADEING FEE…)

4) When I got the coins late that week (quick but not "walk through" either) they were mostly 70's but...

5) They were all out of order with some random sequence slab numbers and...

6) Seven (7) coins were tagged with a post-it notes saying conservation recommended on a PR-69.  So I think conservation + 69 = 70. But... 

7) after paying for "show grading", and delivering the coins, waiting to get them back, following their recommendations for conservation, 3 out of 7 upgraded to 70.

8) With the current Mint management quality control process, it was hard for me to understand how a Mint sealed coin could need conservation much less 7 out of 41.  And then, what is the point of conserving a gold coin (it won’t Corrode) if they come back in the same grade looking the same.  I have been at this for 53 years and I'm no David Vagi but come on...

To steal and bastardize a quote from Winston Churchill:  NGC is the worst third party grading service EXCEPT FOR ALL THE REST!

Am I whining, yeah, I am.  But we are in to coins because they scratch some little pedantic itch we have, the need to set things in order, to completion with the ever elusive, in fact unattainable, goal of perfection.  But we try and that is what makes me whine.   For those who might have interest here is my "Spouse set."  All issues are represented with my photos of and commentary on each First Lady, I hope you enjoy:  https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/189141/

I do believe that Mark Salzberg is the finest person in the hobby, business and or obsession we love.  He unlike Mr. Hall really gets why we do what we do.

John (JTO)

Just one more to show that you can insert the green bean.

John

Very nice lighting!

I have taken a less laborious approach.  I take my camera and mount it on my father's (now passed) 50 year old photo copy stand.  This places the film/digital image plain of the camera parallel to the coin (the camera is mounted facing straight down.)  I surround the copy stand, camera, holder and coin with a automobile sun screen (reflective silver foil bubble type) and aim my lights at the sun screen.  This is just another way of getting indirect lighting.  I crop the coins in photoshop in the shape of a circle to remove the holder or background.  Then I crop the label.  I use the power point slide program to arrange the coin (obverse and reverse) and the label with any other items (green bean or comments...)

Thank you for looking,

John

Hmmm... Doors are a good thing to close (my wife and I have 2 daughters).  I wonder if you might have missed a decimal point on the $122.00.  By my math $122.00 in cents is 122 X 100 = 12,200 coins.  A roll or stack of 50 Lincoln cents is ~ three inches in length or height.  I would not contest that you made a stack of that number of Lincoln cents but I think that if you did it was a bit taller than 19.5 inches.

Just my 2 cents,

John 

Congratulations!

Obviously to have done all that I am a deeply disturbed person...

The key point is that in 2014 there were no German 1 Mark-E Proof 67 Ultra Cameo coins in either PCGS or NGC holders.  Now at NGC there are 2 in Proof 66 UC and 1 in Proof 67 UC.  Now at PCGS there are no Proof coins above 65 in Deep Cameo.  There are still only 3 coins in the population reports for this Ultra Cameo group all now at NGC, 2 in 66 and 1 in 67.  But does that represent 1, 2 or 3 individual coins?  So the possibilities fro your coin are 1) a new coin surfaced (weak theory, because what happened to the PCGS 67 Deep Cameo),  2) the lone PCGS coin was submitted for upgrading (i.e it was never in an NGC holder)  or 3) one of the two NGC coins was crossed to PCGS to get a grade of 67 Deep Cam. and now you are crossing it back.  In an unusual act of integrity the PCGS labels 66 AND 67 Deep Cameo were returned when crossed to NGC because both the PCGS 66 AND 67 Deep Cam have been removed from the PCGS pop report.  Major kudos to you if you did that!  Population reports are bloated due to crack outs or re-submissions that don't return the original label to the competing service, but that is quite another topic.-

The links for the full size images are below.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/germany/world-coins/germany-empire-wilhelm-ii-empire-proof-mark-1910-e-/a/3032-31714.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

https://www.atlasnumismatics.org/1051904.jpg

The last Image can be found at NGC World Coin Auction Results and for each of the two headings just cut and paste the entries below 

Keywords: GERMANY. Mark, 1910-E. Dresden Mint. PCGS PROOF-67 DEEP CAMEO

Auction House: Stack's Bowers Galleries (& Ponterio)

After some digging I think I may have found your coin.  A similar or the same coin appears at Heritage in 2014 in an NGC Proof 66 UC Holder and sold for 646.25 with photos that are not photoshop edited (Photo 1 & 2).  So in 2014 at the time of that auction there were 2 NGC coins in Proof 66 with none finer and 1 in a PCGS 66 holder with none finer (3 coins at or above 66).  Your coin has a high likelihood (at least 50:50 chance) of being the 2014 Heritage coin.   The coin was crossed to a PCGS holder at sometime to bring the grade up to a Proof 67 Deep Cameo (PCGS simply give higher grades for the same WORLD coin than NGC does, they just do.)  The coin was sold on eBay for ~1450.00 in the PCGS holder with the same image that you have (Photo 3).  This image looks like it was taken in an old NGC holder as  there are no prongs of the edge view holder (either NGC or PCGS.)  Stacks's Bowers then sold the coin in a PCGS proof 67 UC in 2018 for 650.00 (now there are prongs seen on the cropped images (Photo 4).    When Heritage posts photos of a coin in a slab they use basic photography, no photo shop so the coin looks VERY different that those that they present as cropped images of the coin with the holder cropped out. 

Hope this helps,

John

Photo 1

Photo 2

Photo 3

Photo 4

The photographs are the same.  The photograph that you have posted is the same as the photograph NGC used.  Therefore the if the images are the same (based on subtle shadowing and the post photograph editing) there can be only one coin.  I am curious how you came to have that digital image to post?  It is indeed a stunning photo and coin.  Enjoy!

I think that coin928 hit the mark with his/her concern about the after hours work by NGC employees to do Show Service.  I find the people at NGC to be remarkably kind and considerate.  When you find a business where the people are "remarkably kind and considerate" you tend to want to interact with them more or preferentially over their competitor.  There is the issue: the price of success is more work.  More work is financially good but can be personally taxing.  I too hope that the employees at NGC are being cared for as well as they have cared for us.  The fact that the same faces return to each show argues that there is symbiosis between NGC and its employees.

My comment about the decrease in show services was not about the quality of the service itself but about the fact that the service is decreasing over time.  If I did not really care about NGC I would not post comments here.  Nevertheless we all need to remember that this is a hobby/business and the NGC people at the shows are working while we play.

John

Unfortunately that is the rule not the exception.  NGC offered more "Show Grading" opportunities in the past.  They came to Long Beach, for example, then just stopped. Then they shortened the window for Shows Grading at U.S. shows that they did attend.  This seems to be a growing corporate strategy for NGC to focus on the Non-US market over the US and leave the US to PCGS.  I may be wrong and this is in no way a dump on NGC (you can read my laudatory comments about Mark Salzberg and NGC in the "A SLQ Problem Coin's Journey to Righteousness" journal thread.)  https://www.ngccoin.com/boards/blogs/entry/292-a-slq-problem-coins-journey-to-righteousness/

A blue one I think... what a guy!

I couldn't agree more!

You are spot on and well within the the thread.  Most SS Central America double eagles have a very distinctive orange peripheral toning pattern.  The advice to keep a SS Central America OR SS Brother Jonathan (PCGS), SS Republic (NGC) OR SS New York (NGC) in the original holder with as much of the original material (Box, COA, Faux Book/ box, Outer Box...) is solid advice.  This is true for either PCGS or NGC based on the ship.  But the don't buy SS Central America's in NGC holders argument has two major flaws.  First, a Mint State 1857-S in a PCGS holder, without  pedigree is just as likely or MORE LIKELY to be cracked out for a higher grade (So don't buy Au-58 or higher graded PCGS 1857-S double eagles unless gold foil pedigree.)  Second, as a collector LOOK AT THE COIN FIRST NOT THE HOLDER.  Buy the coin not the holder.  There is no question that since the 1986 start of PCGS slabs and 1987 start of NGC there has been significant grade inflation.  There are so many references it is pointless to cite them all. BUT, Salzberg removed PCGS coins from the registry because, and I agree with him, the grade inflation is more pronounced at PCGS.  (Even though NGC's decision to remove PCGS from my registry bummed me out.)  

To return to your APMEX coin my advice is: look at the coin.  Is it solid for the grade?  Next, look at the price; is it fair and within you budget?  Last, does the coin have good eye appeal especially to you?  If the answers to all these questions are yes buy the coin.  In the long run it is the coin that will ultimately appreciate not the holder.  If the APMEX coin is a great coin at a fair price but you missed out on the Heritage Steal of a Deal why pass?  All dealers markup coins.  If the markup has sucked the value out of the coin then pass.  But let the coin, the market data for several similar coins and your budget be your guide as to whether to purchase or not.  Let the dealers make their daily bread ( I am not a dealer.)  For fun and fifty years of collecting here is my SS Central America

Just my opinion...

John

Sadly don't expect the same courteousness, time and insight at PCGS, if D.H. is the expert.  Just my experience.  Like coin928 I was amazed at how down to earth, smart, caring and kind Mark Salzberg was.  He is a true gentleman and scholar. My comment about the other grader comes from these two experiences 1) my first encounter with mark over crossing a 1872 business strike from PCGS to NGC, he had a cold and was clearly not feeling his best and as I waited in line one of NGC people asked if he wanted to stop as the Hour of " meet the expert" had ended but he said no not until everyone who was in line prior to the top of the hour had had their turn...WOW!  And 2) at the PCGS table I took a PCGS 1877 Indian cent that had a bit of verdigris at the date to ask about spot removal or conservation.  This was 30 minutes into the "hour" and D.H. was in a discussion with John Dannreuther (who himself is a super smart and nice man.) D.H. basically just blew me off, sending me to talk with one of his staff who informed me that only D.H. was authorized to make the call.  So I get back in line and a few minutes later D.H. left with maybe 7 or 8 people in line with me and 15 minutes left in the hour.  Maybe it was just a bad day for D.H. or maybe an urgent matter came up, I don't know, but the behavior of Mr. Salzberg sets him and NGC above the other "service" in my mind.

I am not trying to badmouth anyone, but it is clear Mark Salzberg is not in it (numismatics) just for the money.

That is all a bit odd because the resolution of a computer monitor is many times that of a TV.   The size of the TV is larger but the resolution lower (bigger image but less data/pixels.)

Great job on the photography.  For what it is worth, in my lowly opinion, this is a very strong example of strike doubling (hub doubling).  The feather made me pause but each ghost image appears as a shelflike shadow rather than a separate strike.  The secondary, ghost, image has no signs of downward sloping of the shelf on the side of the primary image (the downward slope is need to indicate a true doubled strike of the die.)  Just one old guy's view.  You can always send it in and see what the "experts" say.  I you have, what did they say?

John

The couldn't agree more with comments above.  I used to eagerly await logging in my new purchases into the NGC website.  No longer.  In parallel I have watched the posts on the left side of the control board evaporate.  I recognize NGC doesn't want to run the website for free, they want a return on their assessment by forcing people to have All of their coins greeted by NGC prior to being permitted on the registry.  I read the commentary by Mark Saltsburg Provided data supporting grade inflation by PCGS.  Some of the cases stated appeared to be valid and some on further investigation he had an innocent explanation.  Regardless to offer a potential solution rather than just complaining: it seems to me that NGC could continue to  still continue to support the registry that included both NGC and PCGS by conducting 10% from PCGS Coins on the NGC registry.  Effectively, they are already do this.  On modern mint state gold commemorative's my numeric score is perfect (Each coin is MS 70).  I have a picture as well as a comment for each coin,  but because I have 5 PCGS graded coins out of 40 I am relegated to second place.

It may be that NGC has made a corporate decision to abandon the American market and focus Asia as demonstrated by the fact that the opening page of the registry is world coins rather than United States coins.  While on the issue of the control panel it still drives me crazy, when I work on a set and then hit the back arrow to go back to the control panel, rather than returning to the page that I was on, it goes to the first page which in my case starts with Argentina.

NGC's customer service vis-à-vis the registry is becoming a complete failure.

John

For what it's worth, here is my opinion:  I have had a number of $10 Eagle's with stars placed in aberrant locations.  On your coin it appears that the star is a negative image rather than positive.  Meaning that the star is essentially incuse, that is, the stars below the surface of the cheek rather than standing out on top of the cheek.  If it were a double straight the star should be raised relative to the surface of the cheek rather than incuse.

The bottom line is I think this is most likely the result of a bag mark.  The $10 Saint Gaudens coin has stars around the round rim and it is likely that when these coins were in a large bag one of the coins impacted the cheek resulting in the indented star that you see.  If it was the result of the double straight from the working die the star should be raised, which in the photo it appears not to be.  If on the other hand I am incorrectly interpreting the photographs and the star is raised then I think that you  may have a double strike.

John

Here is the rub...  Crack it out and say goodbye to MS-66.  If you decided to recertify it may come back in anything from an MS-67 to a "AU Details Artificial Color."   Enjoy the coin, I have cracked out many coins for an album set (I tape the slab insert to the inside cover of the album.)  But, recognize that it is a one way street.  One trick I use for a coin that I know that I am going to use in an album is to buy a "details" coin that I think might pass for original.  Here are my 2 most memorable crack out/recert coins.  These were coins that on close inspection I thought were good original coins; that the "Details" grade was inappropriate.  1) 1909-S Indian 1c was in an ICG AU-58 corroded  holder.  I cleaned the coin carefully with some old Coin Care (the stuff with the now banned TFTCE (trifluoro-trichloro-ethane.)  After removing a small amount of verdigris I sent the coin to PCGS and got it back in a PCGS AU-58 holder.  The second 2) and my favorite is a 1923-S FH Standing Liberty Quarter that I bought in an NGC AU details improperly cleaned holder.  It really did not look cleaned to me.  I CAREFULLY dipped it, let it dry for 24 hours and PCGS put it in an AU-58 FH holder.  It is now in an NGG MS-61 FH slab and is now in my NGC registry set with picture so you can judge for yourself.  I love the albums and I loved the spending time on the NGC registry as a way of enjoying virtual albums.  The business decision to no longer allow PCGS has really slowed me down.  For most all of my registry sets I have an album as well and for many I only have the album (Lincoln cents, Washington quarters where it make no sense to me to slab a 1964 quarter for the registry.)  Buy the coin not the holder... And enjoy the hobby. 

I too agree, the "journals" are worse not better.  The registry is also worse and I have cut my time there by 80% (maybe a good thing?)  NGC has taken the "high road" out of town and left us collector behind.  The time is ripe for a Third, Third party to open a user friendly Registry for us "the collector" that serve as the fuel for the hobby.  Maybe the ANA, hint , hint...

NGC IF YOU IGNORE US WE WILL GO AWAY!!!

Here is what I see as a solution, after having several PCGS coins returned that would not cross ( AFTER NGC GOT THE GRADING FEE) I had an idea.  If NGC is so much purer and dedicated to truth and honesty then here is an idea:

Submit PCGS coins to NGC to cross (full fee) or just to grade (like the GSA coins.)  These coins have no guarantee from NGC if they are left in the PCGS holder, they just get a grade.  Because they are still in the PCGS holder they:

1) Don't get included in the NGC population report

2) The NGC grade is affixed to the PCGS holder so the coin can be used in the NGC registry

3) NGC has no liability as they do not provide a guarantee (as stated in the small print by NGC on both GSA and Ancient coins)

4) If the coin is sent in for only an NGC grade but not gross over (the GSA treatment by request) the fee could be reduced (again NGC is not providing a guarantee)

This would bring me back to NGC and I would be willing to pay to get my PCGS coins on the NGC registry (which I like better).

But is is hard to look at a Liberty V in a PCGS MS-66 holder that NGC would not cross and then resubmit to cross at MS-65 or 64,  Would you do it?

John