Coinbuf

Cleaning can take many forms, from a simple wipe with a cloth to use of abrasive compounds and cleaners to chemical "dips". All of these can have different effects on coins with different types of manufacture and metal composition. It is difficult for many to think that something that is as hard as a metal coin could be damaged so easily, yet that is exactly what can and does happen, even from something as simple as wiping with a soft cloth. When a coin for circulation is struck the process imparts flow lines into the surface of the coin, this is what gives a coin its luster and radiance, what we refer to as the cartwheel effect. When a coin is cleaned those lines are disturbed and the luster is impaired, depending on how invasive the cleaning method will determine how much the coin surface and flow lines are damaged. But once done that damage can never be undone, there is no way to effectively repair the surface of a coin. Many have tried over the years and many ways to hide the damage have evolved with varying levels of success.

Almost exactly! Because it is not about if the coin is interesting or not, it is all about the ego trip. After the high of buying the coin and getting the "oohs" and "aahs" from other people there is no longer any reason to keep it, the high is gone and must be replaced with a new high, so the coin is sold and the whale looks for another trophy coin. Now I've used whales and trophy coins in my verbiage, but collectors at all levels have this same experience, I know many collectors that are more interested in the hunt for a coin and are far less interested in keeping it afterwards. Even I have experienced this to a degree, there is a high and feeling of satisfaction when you complete a series or find that perfect coin. But then what, it gets placed into the bank vault and you may not even see it for months or years after, some are fine with that and wish to hold the coin, others are happy to have completed the task and sell the coin quickly to have the funds to find the next coin. This behavior is not defined by the level of interest of that coin to the collecting population, only the continued interest to that one collector. If his interest has been satisfied by the hunt then holding the coin may not be of interest.

I know of no reported instance of the type you are inferring with your post. Coins get resubmitted if the financial incentive is high enough, and every time a coin is graded again it is seen by a different set of graders so there is always room for variance in the grading outcome. A personal example, I had a coin that was MS66, beautiful coin that I felt had a great shot at MS67. I cracked and submitted the coin twice with no success, I then enlisted the help of a well-known dealer that specializes in that series to submit for me. The first submission it came back as a 66+, on the second it received the MS67 grade it (imo) deserved. Happy accident that he had the success that I did not, maybe, perhaps he employed a better strategy than I did. Whatever the case it proved that at times it does matter who submits, be that because of who the submitter is or, the more likely case, how familiar the submitter is with the grading game. Also, as with any business it is always a good idea to take care of your best customers, I have over the years seen a few things happen at coin shows which proved to me that "favors" (things other than high grades) are done inside the industry. Keep in mind that the graders almost always were coin dealers prior to being hired as a grader. And most return to coin dealing once they are done being a grader. So it makes sense that the dealers and graders are well known to each other and likely even spend time in the same social circles. I am not and never will accuse anyone of wrongdoing at the TPG's, but I have yet to see any business or industry where there are no back channels.

I pulled this portion of your reply out because I think you're not understanding the motive or rational behind the purchase of coins like this. This is an ego driven look at what I own type of coin for wealthy collectors, a status item if you will. Once a wealthy collector has owned it there is no reason to continue to hold it, he has already announced to the world his coin dominance and it is time to move on to the next big coin. It is not that the coin is not interesting, especially to those who cannot afford one, but rather there is no reason to continue to hold it once the ego has been satisfied and the collector has added his name to the coin's provenance.

Read and participate on three coin forums Work on my coin photography skills, as poor as they are I need to spend lots of time here. Work to be able to afford a few coins when they are available.

Here is the condensed version, NGC was the premier service PCGS was a close second. David Hall took over at PCGS and used his network of dealer friends to promote and hype the PCGS brand to their customers, many of whom are/were the whales in the hobby. As the preference began to shift NGC shot themselves in the foot and began a loose grading period, in what I assume was an attempt to win customers with high grades. Today that preference still lingers with many of the old guard dealers and collectors, time will tell if the new CACG will be the flavor of the month or actually become the market leader and displace the big two over the next few years. The reality is that both TPG's have had periods of loose and tight grading (both real and perceived) and both firms grade very similarly for most coin series.

Nice one!

Thanks for the update @Ali E.!!

The fees depend on if the seller has a store or not, ebay store owners pay around 8% or so in fees. But the fees for non-store sellers are more like 13% or just a touch more. Then there are the returns, where the seller is still charged some portion of the fees and of course another full round of fees should the seller find another buyer. Granted returns and issues like nonpaying buyers are usually minimal but over time those fees can add up. I also know that many ebay sellers are buying coins on auction sites like GC and HA, these flippers then list those coins on Ebay, this is also a portion of why the prices are often full retail pricing +. I know of a few individuals that have ebay stores and follow this model who are members of the PCGS forum.

Some of these that are certified show up at the major auction houses now and then, you might keep an eye on the Stacks auctions as I think they do more in this area. Buying raw I have no idea as I'm not a collector of tokens myself.

Always nice to hear when things go right, usually only hear about the problems. Nice to see that your submission was turned quick and a very attractive Barber.

The two major services did grade more conservatively when they began operations than the current sky is the limit market grading. Back then MS66 was a huge grade and not handed out too often, now MS66 is almost a disappointment for many coin series. Gradeflation is very real, when I first started out buying Lincolns for my registry set Buying an MS67 was very expensive and they were not very plentiful so many of the earlier easy common dates I started with MS66 coins. A few years ago, before the recent hyper inflation, I could buy all of those coins in MS67 and even 67+ (for a few) at the same price levels I was buying MS66's twenty years ago. I would be very underwater on those MS66's I started with except that inflation has brought most of them back to close to the levels I bought at.

This 87-D has changed color because it was exposed to the environment, perhaps buried in the ground for a short while, or perhaps even some household chemical or soap, even a trip through the washer being exposed to the detergent can do this to copper coins. This would not be graded by any competent grading company and you would be wasting money sending in this coin. That does not mean that you cannot keep and hold onto it, if you find it pretty and attractive to you then by all means you can and should keep it. We just want you to know what you have and not be misled. It is difficult to say for sure on the 1943 steelie from the photos, follow the advice already given and look at the edge of the coin. My guess is that the coin is original but again is not valuable enough to warrant spending money to have it graded and slabbed.

Well, you didn't specify it had to be a classic commemorative. I'm not much for the classic or even many of the modern commemoratives, just not my cup of tea. But if I had to choose a classic commemorative it would be the Columbian, I like the ship on the rev.

@sanction, first I do not work for NGC but I have collected Lincoln cents for over 40 years and have an extensive collection of them. I reviewed the photos, that are available on the cert verification page for two of your coins 6491509-001 and 6490546-001. Neither of these coins have any mint errors on the area of the reverse steps. Missing steps (unless a strike thru error) are just an indication of poor quality, something that was very prevalent for much of the regular mint production during the entire 1960's. The lines you are referring to are just marks that the coins received from being banged around with other coins during the handling and packaging at the mint, coins that were placed and sold in mint sets were not handled in any special way like proof coins were. Both of the coins I viewed photos of are just normal circulation coins not proof coins and I see no evidence in the photos that these two coins display any mint errors. I am not trying to advise you on what to do and I wish you the best of luck, but from what I can see in the NGC photos both of these coins are graded correctly and any further monies you spend on shipping and grading of these coins will be wasted. That of course is just my opinion, and you are free to do as you choose.

The cert number has no value, if you convert an old solid (soapbar) holder into a new prong holder it is very possible that you lost not only the reholder cost but any actual or perceived value from the old holder, an old cert number is meaningless without the old holder. I encourage this type of behavior for other collectors as every old holder that gets cracked just makes those in my collection that much more valuable. I can only say that my experience is different than yours; I can say for sure that I have been saying and have heard many others saying this for quite a while now. Some of the old holders are already quite rare especially some of the early flip type of holders like the David Hall flips from before he was involved with PCGS. But I do agree that it will take a very long time before most of the more common old holders like the PCGS rattler (the second gen rattler), OGH, and the latter gen 4 and 5 soapbar NGC holders will become rare. But I do expect it will happen at some point, as the prices continue to rise it will at some time become financially viable for dealers and collectors to crack out those low MS common date coins and try for that one point upgrade. In fact we are already on the cusp of that time, many of the old holder Morgan dollars in my old holder collection were purchased when these were selling for $25 or $30 each, today in the next grade up I could sell them for $80 or more if I choose to crack and have graded. And there are collectors like numisport above to whom the preference for the new holder outweighs any financial consideration.

It takes two things for a variety coin to gain popularity, availability (and occasionally the lack of) and promotion. As pointed out above this particular VAM lacks the visual "pop" to create excitement, however, even without that pop with the right promotion it could get the "love" you believe it deserves.

This has been happening for at least five years now, more prevalent in some series than others. Gold, as a general overview, seems to have a lower sticker rate than say Morgans. Perhaps this is due to gold coins having a higher probability rate of being bonked to get a higher grade, maybe some other factors. People like myself have been chasing old holders before CAC even started, but the prices on old holder CAC'd coins has spiked in the past five years, and really climbed in the past two. And gold beaned coins are just unbelievable, just this past month I saw a gold bean MS65 Lincoln sell for over $1,600 . That same coin in MS67+ goes for around $700, but someone was willing to pay twice the price of a 67+, crazy prices for the gold bean in certain situations. The key to this is knowing where the coins have been, if we are talking about coins that trade between dealers constantly at shows then yes many of those are the average for the grade coins that are left in old holders which are hyped by dealers. Also in this group are coins that are legitimate upgrade contenders but simply not valuable enough in the next grade up to warrant the cost to crack and submit. Coins like MS62 Morgan dollars which might grade MS63 today fall into this group, there are many coins like this which would upgrade but the cost outweighs the benefit to a dealer. If prices for US coins continue to advance higher as it has the past two years some of those low-grade UNC's will eventually reach a point where it will be profitable to crack and regrade, we might even be getting close to that point for some Morgan dollars. Where you can still find true undergraded gems are in old time collections that have been off the market for years and years. Every now and then you can find one of these coins in a dealer's offerings if he just bought it from some estate, but quite often these trade hands between collectors or at auction venues. Just yesterday I bought one PCGS OGH holder coin that looks to be very nice for the grade from the heir of the collection off market for twenty years or more.

Like @Sandon all but one of my 1st place sets is a mix of NGC and PCGS coins and none of those sets has changed. Are your sets all moderns? Often there are a bunch of people tied at the top due to so many modern sets with all MS/PF70 coins. If one set takes the top spot alone then I could see how you and others might see a large drop in the rankings.

I do not see why the old system would be affected, but maybe?? I am also having the same issue, no access to the control panel but the other functions are working as of now.

Coins are not polished after they are struck (coined). To be a dropped letter the letter would have to be the same size as one on the coin, the only one that could work is the s from "E Pluribus Unum" and that s has a different shape than the contact mark you see. And secondly to be a dropped letter it would be incuse, but the portion above the larger s is raised not incuse so there is no possibility of this being a dropped letter. What I see is a combination of a well-placed hit, a small die chip above the large S and metal flow lines that happen when a coin is struck.

If or how fast a coin changes color, or as I like to say, tarnishes, is (as noted by Moxie) a factor of how collectors store coins. Too many collectors and dealers today try and induce rapid toning with improper storage. That has happened because the market has gone wild for any color, natural, accelerated, or AT which has incentivized this action. Tarnish or toning as most prefer will continue to progress, the rate of progression is entirely dependent on how it is stored. Keep it in a cool dry environmentally controlled place and the coin may not show any noticeable progression for many, many years. Left in a wet, hot place it will progress quickly, perhaps noticeably within a year or less. But regardless of the storage conditions toning is constantly moving to the terminal black state, remember that slabs are not completely airtight. Btw, that is a very lovely looking coin, congrats on that addition to your collection.

It looks like simple impact damage from what I see, also the coin is not struck off center. To be classified as off center both sides would need some portion of the rim, design, and or lettering to be missing, at best this might be considered as MAD (misaligned die), but it is so minor that I doubt anyone would care.

This has always been my approach, find the best-looking coin regardless of the of brand of plastic. Only during the PCGS blackout period did I try a few crossovers for registry reasons, lesson learned there.

Darn that is unfortunate, sorry to hear that it got away, did it sell that quickly or was it taken down by the seller? You are correct that they don't come around every day, but there are enough between NGC and PCGS that they do show up now and then, so I'm sure that another will surface again.