Did I get burned? I believe I did. 2 2

[Hoghead515]

I just got a 1961 Washington in the mail. After I got it and examined it I think I've been had. The coin doesn't look like an ms66 coin or the one that was probably in the slab before. I looked it up on the certification lookup and the pictures have been deleted. I guess I should have done that before I bought it. Also looks like the slab has been tampered with. There is also a crusty spot on the back of the coin. I wanted to post it here and get other people's opinions also. I will probably send it back. What do you all think?

[Hoghead515]

[Hoghead515]

[Hoghead515]

Would NGC slab it with that big ugly spot on the reverse without conservation?  The buyer has 100% feedback. I almost passed on it. There wasn't a very good photo. That's probably why. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Hoghead515

[numisport]

Holders that early don't have images. Looks okay to me. NGC used to do an appearance review at no charge for coins you think are over graded.

[World Colonial]

If you do not like it, I would send it back if you do not mind paying the postage.

[Hoghead515]

Thanks for the replies. I've heard of people cracking open slabs and switching out the coins. Just didn't know if that happened here or not.  That slab may have been dropped or something at one time and caused that spot on the bottom of the holder. I didn't know they didn't take pictures back then. Learned something new today.  Appreciate the info. 

[RWB]

There is no stigma to returning an item that was misdescribed or is unsatisfactory. Let the seller know and include the reverse detail photo.

[MarkFeld]

38 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Would NGC slab it with that big ugly spot on the reverse without conservation?  The buyer has 100% feedback. I almost passed on it. There wasn't a very good photo. That's probably why. 

They might have or the spot might have developed after the coin was encapsulated. So I wouldn't conclude anything from the spot.

Based on the images of the coin and the holder, I don't think there's anywhere near enough proof to determine that the holder was opened and the coin, switched.  

I'd just return it and state that the holder has been damaged - presumably you didn't see photos of that before buying the coin - and that the coin isn't what you were expecting, either. I wouldn't make any accusations or ask any questions.

[Frank]

Just return it.

[Hoghead515]

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

They might have or the spot might have developed after the coin was encapsulated. So I wouldn't conclude anything from the spot.

Based on the images of the coin and the holder, I don't think there's anywhere near enough proof to determine that the holder was opened and the coin, switched.  

I'd just return it and state that the holder has been damaged - presumably you didn't see photos of that before buying the coin - and that the coin isn't what you were expecting, either. I wouldn't make any accusations or ask any questions.

 I wouldn't do that anyway.  If I'm not 100% sure I never make no accusations. I just had some suspicions and I could be totally wrong on. I've been wrong many many times before. Probably been wrong more times than I've been right. I just wanted to get other people's opinions to see what they think.  If I return it I'll just tell the seller I didn't like that big spot on the back. I never make a big stink about nothing when I return it. I'm a very easy going person. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Hoghead515

[GBrad]

Just a random observation here I thought I'd throw out Hoghead but are sure that spot is on the coin and not the holder?  It's a very nice looking coin otherwise and I know you are an experienced collector.  

Edited July 8, 2021 by GBrad

[Hoghead515]

5 minutes ago, GBrad said:

Just a random observation here I thought I'd throw out Hoghead but are sure that spot is on the coin and not the holder?  It's a very nice looking coin otherwise and I know you are an experienced collector.  

Yea it's definitely on the coin. Looks like some kind of oxidation or corrosion under a loupe.

[GBrad]

Just now, Hoghead515 said:

Yea it's definitely on the coin. Looks like some kind of oxidation or corrosion under a loupe.

Roger.  I know you have the coin in hand and it's highly unlikely you'd not see that.  Thanks.  

[Coinbuf]

The slab looks intact and I'm not seeing enough to suspect that the coin was switched.  As you found out NGC only started to take the photos of every slab somewhat recently so coins in the older style holders will not have photos of them.   The early 1960 timeframe was a time of very poor quality across the board for the US mint, overall this coin does not look bad or over graded, however that spot on the reverse is distracting and if it bothers you now it will only bother you more in the future.   Its not all that unusual for some sellers to take photos in such a way to hide or avoid showing issues like this, they know that a high percentage of the time the buyer will just keep the coin rather than return.  I would just contact the seller and request a return, better to spend a couple of dollars on return postage than to be unhappy every time you view the coin.

[Hoghead515]

I'll probably just end up keeping it. I just saw those marks on the plastic and wanted to get everyone's opinions. I was afraid it may have been popped open and switched. I've never opened one of these and never seen them opened so I'm not really sure what types of damage occurs from prying them open. I'd say it was probably more than likely dropped onto something hard and put those cracks in the plastic. I also saw that spot and thought they may have switched coins. You all are way more knowledgeable than I am so it gave me some relief to get so many opinions that it is legit. I believe I will just keep it in the collection and one day if I see a nicer one I will upgrade it. I just got another learning experience today. Most times if there is poor pictures they are usually trying to hide something. I knew that to begin with but I went against my better judgment. This will help me on my future purchases. Thank you to all of you. Here are the sellers pictures of the coin. 

[Conder101]

6 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

I've heard of people cracking open slabs and switching out the coins.

I've heard about it a lot too, never actually seen one.

[GoldFinger1969]

If you paid what for you is alot of $$$, then return it.  If the amount is not prohibitive and you are open to getting a better/higher-graded coin some time in the future, that's another option.....and you can always sell this one in the future.

Me....when I lay out Big $$$ for a dream coin, I want it perfect.  For my others...I'm a bit more forgiving.

[Alex in PA.]

55 minutes ago, Conder101 said:

I've heard about it a lot too, never actually seen one.

I have heard the stories also but here and ATS I have never seen one posted.  As you would know each generation of slab became harder and harder to crack.  I cracked out 3 ICG and 3 NGC slabs and no matter how careful I was it destroyed the slabs.  Just a thought.

[Lem E]

Is there a difference in the tail feathers or am I just seeing things?

[Oldhoopster]

I agree with some of the other posts, if you didn't receive what you paid for, send it back.  That being said, if the questionable area was described by the seller or visible in the sellers pics, or you got it at a discount,  then you're stuck with it, IMO.  However, if you paid a fair retail price, then you should receive an accurately graded coin.  So what if it turned in the holder.  That's not your problem.

A simple explanation saying that the reverse spot wasn't visible in the sellers photo and/or it wasn't properly described should be enough.  The key is to notify the seller in a timely manner.  You shouldn't have to eat somebody else's problems if you didn't know about it in advance

Just my opinion

[Hoghead515]

Here's the only description and the pictures I posted in earlier post was the only pictures. I gave $39.00 and free shipping. It says bid now but it was a buy it now coin. 

[Hoghead515]

56 minutes ago, Lem E said:

Is there a difference in the tail feathers or am I just seeing things?

I think it may just be the way it looks in the picture. 

[comicdonna]

If it is something that is going to bother you every time you look at the coin, I would return it.  

[thebeav]

9 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

 I just had some suspicions and I could be totally wrong on. I've been wrong many many times before. 

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/8/2021 at 6:31 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I have heard the stories also but here and ATS I have never seen one posted.  As you would know each generation of slab became harder and harder to crack.  I cracked out 3 ICG and 3 NGC slabs and no matter how careful I was it destroyed the slabs.  Just a thought.

You used your ferocious 🐕; that's why.

I  went to an ancient hardware store and displaying the carcass of a formerly intact slab and the owner emphasized the reason why they are difficult to open is because they were never meant to be.  It's difficult to argue with logic but the gentleman said the ideal tools would be a knife sharpened not only on one side but at its tip, and a small hammer.

You would work it along the seam bit by bit all around until you were back to square one, and continue, as many times as it took to get enough of an opening to introduce a chisel or other wedgelike instrument until a pair of pliers -- and patience -- helped you achieve your one and only goal: extricating a coin safely with the least amount of damage.  (Using a chair leg is not unlike a woman smoking in public: a display of bad manners.)

What I would like to have is the security clearance required to access the meticulously kept records maintained by each TPGS, in complete secrecy, regarding the total numbers of coins submitted for cross-grading, their origin and how many passed or failed.  No TPGS will confirm or deny such record-keeping exists. Technical vs marketing grading is merely an attempt to circumvent a coin that passes or fails to qualify for a simple grade. For that, you use plus ➕ signs and stars ☆.

[Jason Abshier]

Doesn’t surprise me , I’ve bought some coins online when I got them in hand they weren’t that appealing to me the seller made the pictures look too good . I sent them back it happens but most sellers offer you can send the coin back if not satisfied. Any seller that says “no returns” I don’t do business with them that’s shady business practice 

[Henri Charriere]

@Jason Abshier  These are usually the dealers -- many based overseas -- that provide what they believe is the highest degree of information and the finest example of photography they feel is sufficient for a buyer to make their decision.  In a perfect world make, this would make but is not good enough for the more experienced experts who would prefer to conduct an autopsy at their leisure and on their own terms with a return guarantee. As you may be aware, I have regular dealings with reputable coin emporiums who emphasize the fact that, if for reason you remain unsatisfied, you are free to send the purchased item back postehaste.

[Walkerfan]

I don't think that the coin has been switched out.  I think that the old NGC holder just has a small crack in it.  It all comes down to whether you like the coin or not.  If the cracked slab and the small white oxidation spot bother you, then I would definitely send it back.  Otherwise, I would keep it.  All things considered it's not really a bad coin.

[Hoghead515]

10 hours ago, Walkerfan said:

I don't think that the coin has been switched out.  I think that the old NGC holder just has a small crack in it.  It all comes down to whether you like the coin or not.  If the cracked slab and the small white oxidation spot bother you, then I would definitely send it back.  Otherwise, I would keep it.  All things considered it's not really a bad coin.

I just went ahead and kept it. Ive already got a replacement for it on the way to go in my set. I found a 61 and 61d in auction as a lot sold together. I ended up being the winning bidder. Figured I'd just keep the coin above in with my other coins. It will be passed down to my kids one of these days with the rest. I figured it's not eating anything.  I got enough opinions now to know that it's legit. The spot on the holder itself doesn't bother me at all. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't done cracking the slab open. I have never seen any that has been opened before so I didn't know it was hard to do without damaging the plastic severely. Everyone's info made me feel a lot better. There are some very knowledgeable people here that I trust and am very fortunate to have their advice.