Is truthfullness a reasonable expectation from coin sellers? 1 1

[RWB]

Comments on another thread got me to wondering if there is a reasonable expectation that coin sellers or TPGs be truthful in all respects?

Thoughts?

[Alex in PA.]

40 minutes ago, RWB said:

a reasonable expectation that coin sellers or TPGs be truthful in all respects?

I would like to present this scenario:  Dealer has a beautiful 1884 NGC MS 66 Carson City Morgan Dollar.  Dealer sends coin to CAC where it is rejected.  In comes Mr. Newbie and falls in love with coin.  Mr. Newbie asks Dealer "Has this been to CAC for a look?"   What do you think the dealer will say?

[World Colonial]

I certainly don’t trust eBay sellers asking stupid money prices

[Oldhoopster]

 I would expect that the seller/TPG not knowingly misrepresent an item and answer any questions honestly.  Not providing all the info falls into a gray area (as with many sales transactions), but if I ask "did you send this coin to CAC?" Or " do you know if this coins has been broken out if a slab?", I expect a truthful answer.  If you lie to me and I find out, I'll call you out, tell others what I think of your honesty/credibility, and refuse to do business with you again.  

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Oldhoopster

[Coinbuf]

Yes it is a reasonable expectation, however someone else's definition of truthfulness or honesty may not align with yours.

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, Alex in PA. said:

I would like to present this scenario:  Dealer has a beautiful 1884 NGC MS 66 Carson City Morgan Dollar.  Dealer sends coin to CAC where it is rejected.  In comes Mr. Newbie and falls in love with coin.  Mr. Newbie asks Dealer "Has this been to CAC for a look?"   What do you think the dealer will say?

It depends who the dealer is. And ditto if the seller is a collector.

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Comments on another thread got me to wondering if there is a reasonable expectation that coin sellers or TPGs be truthful in all respects?

Thoughts?

While it’s fine to hope or wish, I think it’s unreasonable to expect just about anyone to be “truthful in all respects”.

[gmarguli]

1 hour ago, Alex in PA. said:

I would like to present this scenario:  Dealer has a beautiful 1884 NGC MS 66 Carson City Morgan Dollar.  Dealer sends coin to CAC where it is rejected.  In comes Mr. Newbie and falls in love with coin.  Mr. Newbie asks Dealer "Has this been to CAC for a look?"   What do you think the dealer will say?

Look buddy, it's 800* 1200 bucks. Do you want it or not? 

 

*Oops, my bad. Didn't see it was a newbie asking. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by gmarguli

[Henri Charriere]

[It's been said a criminal trial is not primarily an investigation to discover the truth, although truth may sometimes be disinterred by chance]

If such a trial were a search for the "truth," why do the respective sides talk about "winning" 🏆 or "losing" 📉 ?

"I don't want to know what the law is, I want to know who the judge is."   - Roy M. Cohn (1988)

"It is always the best policy to speak the truth -- unless, of course, you are an exceptionally good liar."  - Jerome K. Jerome (1892)

Is truthfulness a reasonable expectation  from coin sellers? 🤔  No, it is not.  (When was the term caveat emptor first coined?  Chandelor vs Lopus, England 1603. Let the buyer beware.)

[Alex in PA.]

• If you tell the truth, you don’t have to remember anything. ...
• Benjamin Franklin

[RWB]

2 hours ago, Alex in PA. said:

I would like to present this scenario:  Dealer has a beautiful 1884 NGC MS 66 Carson City Morgan Dollar.  Dealer sends coin to CAC where it is rejected.  In comes Mr. Newbie and falls in love with coin.  Mr. Newbie asks Dealer "Has this been to CAC for a look?"   What do you think the dealer will say?

Yes. "Does your basement leak?," asked the house buyer.....

[RWB]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

While it’s fine to hope or wish, I think it’s unreasonable to expect just about anyone to be “truthful in all respects”.

That they know about or should reasonably be expected to know -- particularly if they present this in a public format.

[RWB]

22 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[It's been said a criminal trial is not primarily an investigation to discover the truth, although truth may sometimes be disinterred by chance]

If such a trial were a search for the "truth," why do the respective sides talk about "winning" 🏆 or "losing" 📉 ?

"I don't want to know what the law is, I want to know who the judge is."   - Roy M. Cohn (1988)

"It is always the best policy to speak the truth -- unless, of course, you are an exceptionally good liar."  - Jerome K. Jerome (1892)

Is truthfulness a reasonable expectation  from coin sellers? 🤔  No, it is not.  (When was the term caveat emptor first coined?  Chandelor vs Lopus, England 1603. Let the buyer beware.)

So lies, deception, fakes, and anything else goes - as long as the buyer doesn't get suspicious and visit a 'Jersey Pizza joint for a "consultation." Doesn't say much positive about humanity, does it?

[Just Bob]

3 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

It depends who the dealer is. And ditto if the seller is a collector.

I can recall seeing comments such as "CAC declined to sticker this coin," or similar, in the descriptions of coins on your website, when you were selling. I always thought that was admirable.

[Woods020]

I was viewing a coin currently active in legend auction. The description casually said “we don’t know why CAC would not certify this coin”.  I actually thought that was nice to see. I sure haven’t seen it often. 

[JKK]

Depends if you mean "reasonable" as in "fair, just" or as in "realistic."

The first, yes, all the way. The second, no, not with all the money to be made deceiving people who know no better. And with old collectors bequeathing collections to non-collecting spouses and children, you can expect the industry's slimier creatures to keep paying them unfair prices and laughing.

[Henri Charriere]

58 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

I can recall seeing comments such as "CAC declined to sticker this coin," or similar, in the descriptions of coins on your website, when you were selling. I always thought that was admirable.

Which, by extension in my case would require that the proprietor of the store I purchased, but elected not to take immediate delivery of a high-end 🐓, be ethically bound to sticker it:  "PCGS declined to cross-grade this coin." Or is that an unreasonable expectation from not just a coin seller, but a reputable dealer?  🤔

[zadok]

9 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Which, by extension in my case would require that the proprietor of the store I purchased, but elected not to take immediate delivery of a high-end 🐓, be ethically bound to sticker it:  "PCGS declined to cross-grade this coin." Or is that an unreasonable expectation from not just a coin seller, but a reputable dealer?  🤔

definitely an unreasonable expectation in numismatics....

[Just Bob]

6 hours ago, Alex in PA. said:

I would like to present this scenario:  Dealer has a beautiful 1884 NGC MS 66 Carson City Morgan Dollar.  Dealer sends coin to CAC where it is rejected.  In comes Mr. Newbie and falls in love with coin.  Mr. Newbie asks Dealer "Has this been to CAC for a look?"   What do you think the dealer will say?

In this scenario, I think it is reasonable to expect the dealer not to lie.

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, Just Bob said:

I can recall seeing comments such as "CAC declined to sticker this coin," or similar, in the descriptions of coins on your website, when you were selling. I always thought that was admirable.

Thank you. I greatly appreciate that.

[Moxie15]

In a perfect world perhaps.

In this world if a newbie is spending such money without some kind of knowledge of his hobby then he is not being honest to himself and had better beware. Yes honest sellers are great but they are also human, and above all trying to make a living by getting you to buy their product.

There are some here that think coin dealers need to be saints to be in business, to them I just smile. Perhaps I am simply jaded, and do not collect in the realm where CAC is a major factor, but outside of online forums I have seen little interest in  what CAC thinks.

If the dealer says 'yes it has' and the buyer still buys the coin, is he wrong?

Ultimately if one's most important concern is what CAC thinks then  I question where one's heart truly is.

[VKurtB]

16 hours ago, World Colonial said:

I certainly don’t trust eBay sellers asking stupid money prices

Anyone from ohhhh, let’s say Nevada, come to mind? Just to pick a place at random. /snicker

[VKurtB]

15 hours ago, Oldhoopster said:

 I would expect that the seller/TPG not knowingly misrepresent an item and answer any questions honestly.  Not providing all the info falls into a gray area (as with many sales transactions), but if I ask "did you send this coin to CAC?" Or " do you know if this coins has been broken out if a slab?", I expect a truthful answer.  If you lie to me and I find out, I'll call you out, tell others what I think of your honesty/credibility, and refuse to do business with you again.  

 

 

What if the seller says, “The coin is what the coin is.”?

[MarkFeld]

5 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

What if the seller says, “The coin is what the coin is.”?

That response ignores the question asked. So I’d take it as evasiveness.

[Oldhoopster]

8 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

What if the seller says, “The coin is what the coin is.”?

 

Is a telling me a lie? No. But it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand what he’s saying with that response.  The coin has negative attributes that he doesn’t want to talk about.  So, he answered my question by not answering it and I’ll make my purchasing decision accordingly.  Pretty simple

[VKurtB]

I agree with those who don’t play in CAC’s pool. I’ve never done business with them and never will. The whole business concept offends me at a visceral level. I also never pay a premium for beaned coins. I am also NOT a supporter of NGC’s recent CAC points enhancement, not that I do registries  

Now, regarding the main topic. Anyone expecting an opposite party in a numismatic transaction to surrender superior knowledge of ANYTHING, much less a coin’s “history”, is a foole. The coin biz is wolves vs. sheep. Ethical people exist but they are disturbingly rare. I almost NEVER encounter ethics other than at the biggest shows. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by VKurtB

[Alex in PA.]

1 hour ago, Moxie15 said:

Ultimately if one's most important concern is what CAC thinks then  I question where one's heart truly is.

The problem with your statement is:  CAC has been in business since 2007 and has developed a hobby wide reputation for certifying some of the most appealing coins being offered today.  It is not unreasonable to believe a person new to our hobby has done his homework and read the publicity, comments, etc. about this organization while attempting to acquire information on the hobby..  So, to want the finest coin available may not be a matter of the heart but certainly is a matter of the mind.  However, there are a few who do try to learn anything about collecting.  

[Woods020]

I think a lot of it depends on the end goal of the seller in question. Someone who wants to build a reputation and garner repeat business would be well served to be honest and transparent. Conversely many of the sellers are short term oriented and want to make quick sales. Ideally they are just a random name on eBay or the like and stay at arms length to push product with no regard to reputation. So the structure of the business will tell you a lot. But to answer the initial question yes if you want to build a business you should be honest. In the short term it may mean you don’t get top dollar for a particular coin, but in the long run the relationships you form will pay dividends. 

[MarkFeld]

4 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

I think a lot of it depends on the end goal of the seller in question. Someone who wants to build a reputation and garner repeat business would be well served to be honest and transparent. Conversely many of the sellers are short term oriented and want to make quick sales. Ideally they are just a random name on eBay or the like and stay at arms length to push product with no regard to reputation. So the structure of the business will tell you a lot. But to answer the initial question yes if you want to build a business you should be honest. In the short term it may mean you don’t get top dollar for a particular coin, but in the long run the relationships you form will pay dividends. 

“...yes if you want to build a business you should be honest.”

You should be honest, regardless.

[Woods020]

4 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

“...yes if you want to build a business you should be honest.”

You should be honest, regardless.

I agree. I’m just saying I think you can tell what a sellers motivation is generally, but yes honesty should be involved regardless.