Is truthfullness a reasonable expectation from coin sellers? 1 1

[Alex in PA.]

And I should have included purchased after 2002.  Also ten or more Proof Sets were slabbed during that period by NGC.

[VKurtB]

14 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe, but JA is synonomous with CAC and is well-respected, do YOU know who the graders are at the TPG who went over your coins ?

 

Don't care, really I don't. NGC hired them to do this job. I trust NGC to make that decision, and I trust 3 from NGC over one guy in ALL circumstances, and I don't care WHO that one is. Five would be even better than three, but there are diminishing returns.

Edited May 22, 2021 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

14 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Don't care, really I don't. NGC hired them to do this job. I trust NGC to make that decision, and I trust 3 from NGC over one guy in ALL circumstances, and I don't care WHO that one is.

So you don’t think that the major grading companies ever over-grade coins or straight-grade coins that should be in details-grade holders? And that a different expert’s opinion to that effect can be worthwhile?

[RWB]

Opinions are fine, but are dishonesty and lies?

[MarkFeld]

6 minutes ago, RWB said:

Opinions are fine, but are dishonesty and lies?

Of course not, why even ask?

[Alex in PA.]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

So you don’t think that the major grading companies ever over-grade coins or straight-grade coins that should be in details-grade holders?

You should be able to answer that better.  Were you not in the 'driver's seat'?  Do you believe you are guilty of that or do you believe all humans err once in a while and make personal opinions.

[Alex in PA.]

We contract the TPGs to provide us their best estimate of the coin we send them for evaluation.  To expect more is foolish.  If you cannot trust the TPG you should not use it.  

[MarkFeld]

33 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

You should be able to answer that better.  Were you not in the 'driver's seat'?  Do you believe you are guilty of that or do you believe all humans err once in a while and make personal opinions.

I asked VKurtB because he’s the one who said 

Don't care, really I don't. NGC hired them to do this job. I trust NGC to make that decision, and I trust 3 from NGC over one guy in ALL circumstances, and I don't care WHO that one is.

Even though grading is subjective, I think it’s fair to say that just about everyone over-grades and under-grades coins, from time to time. Which is why I don’t understand someone deciding ahead of time that an additional expert opinion is a waste. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by MarkFeld

[Alex in PA.]

21 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

I don’t understand someone deciding ahead of time that an additional expert opinion is a waste. 

I can't speak to everyone but people always have their grievances; large or small.  Getting a second opinion is not a bad thing and I have done it.  That second opinion cost me a small bundle of money but it was the right move.  Since we are speaking to honesty let me explain.  I saw on EBay two Carson City Trade Dollars for sale at great prices.  On was graded MS and the other AU by a bottom tier TPG.  Bought them and was so happy at the price visions of flipping flew through my eyes.  Sent them to NGC and both came back Details-Cleaned.  No, no I said.  Cracked out and off to the folks ATS they went.  Came back Details-Cleaned.  I was heart broken but unfortunately a first year student could see that AU had been cleaned but I just didn't want to believe it.  I had pictures of the original slabs and could have sent the coins back to the original TPG.  Instead, they were sold PCGS Details- Cleaned.  Hard lessons are sometimes hard learned but I made sure the person buying them knew what was what.  On the Original MS I can see the grader made an non-intentional error but the AU one a 5th grader could tell it was cleaned.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Alex in PA.
Spelling

[MarkFeld]

2 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

I can't speak to everyone but people always have their grievances; large or small.  Getting a second opinion is not a bad thing and I have done it.  That second opinion cost me a small bundle of money but it was the right move.  Since we are speaking to honesty let me explain.  I saw on EBay to Carson City Trade Dollars for sale at great prices.  On was graded MS and the other AU by a bottom tier TPG.  Bought them and was so happy at the price visions of flipping flew through my eyes.  Sent them to NGC and both came back Details-Cleaned.  No, no I said.  Cracked out and off to the folks ATS they went.  Came back Details-Cleaned.  I was heart broken but unfortunately a first year student could see that AU had been cleaned but I just didn't want to believe it.  I had pictures of the original slabs and could have sent the coins back to the original TPG.  Instead, they were sold PCGS Details- Cleaned.  Hard lessons are sometimes hard learned but I made sure the person buying them knew what was what.  On the Original MS I can see the grader made an non-intentional error but the AU one a 5th grader could tell it was cleaned.

Good for you for doing the right thing.👍

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Alex in PA. said:

We contract the TPGs to provide us their best estimate of the coin we send them for evaluation.  To expect more is foolish.  If you cannot trust the TPG you should not use it.  

Yes. This. Exactly. If I am not willing to accept a TPG firm’s grade, I will not have used them in the first instance. 
 

Now, have I seen already slabbed coins which carry grades with which I disagree? Sure. I need only one “second opinion” - MINE. 
 

Johnny A’s could not possibly be more irrelevant to me if such were his personal goal.  

Edited May 22, 2021 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

19 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Yes. This. Exactly. If I am not willing to accept a TPG firm’s grade, I will not have used them in the first instance. 
 

Now, have I seen already slabbed coins which carry grades with which I disagree? Sure. I need only one “second opinion” - MINE. 
 

Johnny A’s could not possibly be more irrelevant to me if such were his personal goal.  

Fair enough.

[Henri Charriere]

3 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

Fair enough.

Hold-up-wait-a-min-ute...

Was it not the irrepressible VKurt who, perhaps inadvertently, 🤔 expressed an intimate knowledge of decapsulations right there on the floors of coin shows, acts presumably caught on his ever-present "Speed Graphic."?  If dealers do not trust TPGS, why should Joe Schmo?

Three [hearing] examiners may be fine for the purposes of granting discretionary parole, and nine justices may be sufficient to affirm a decision in a life or death matter, but two or three graders seems insufficient to weigh in on matters of dire circumstances under intolerable time constraints with repercussions extending to the collector community as a whole. The phenomenon of "cracking out" coins signifies dissatisfaction bordering on outright refusal to accept a grading decision. Maybe what's needed is a "court of appeals" comprised of retired graders or an independent body of experts whose decision would be final.

[Oldhoopster]

21 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

..........Maybe what's needed is a "court of appeals" comprised of retired graders or an independent body of experts whose decision would be final.

Isn't that sort of what JA provides?  

[Henri Charriere]

30 minutes ago, Oldhoopster said:

Isn't that sort of what JA provides?  

 

30 minutes ago, Oldhoopster said:

Isn't that sort of what JA provides?  

No, not unless they had the power to send a coin back for reconsideration and regrading.  Denying a coin a bean is, for lack of a more appropriate analogy, the equivalent of  (certiorari denied) or declining to hear the matter.  That does not solve a problem.  It only reinforces it and forces the aggrieved party to take matters into his own hands -- unless, of course, the grade under dispute was correct to begin with.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Misspelling

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Yes. This. Exactly. If I am not willing to accept a TPG firm’s grade, I will not have used them in the first instance. 
 

Now, have I seen already slabbed coins which carry grades with which I disagree? Sure. I need only one “second opinion” - MINE. 
 

Johnny A’s could not possibly be more irrelevant to me if such were his personal goal.  

What, if anything, do you do when you submit a coin and the grade is enough lower than you expected, such that you don’t understand it? Likewise, what if you get a details-grade on a coin that you see as clearly deserving a straight grade? Or has neither scenario ever occurred?

[Henri Charriere]

You are one tough cookie, MarkFeld!

[Alex in PA.]

JA aka John Albanese:

John Albanese (1959-present): Since 1978, John Albanese has been at the forefront of many of the coin industry's greatest innovations. He was a founding member of the Professional Coin Grading Service (www.PCGS.com) in 1986, founder of Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) in 1987, founder of Intercept Shield (a line of products designed to protect coins from corrosive gases) in 2001, and founder of the Numismatic Consumer Alliance in 2005, an organization dedicated to protecting individual coin buyers. In subsequent years, the Numismatic Consumer Alliance has assisted in the recovery of over $10 million lost under abuses in the coin industry. In 2007, Albanese formed the Certified Acceptance Corp. (CAC) and has rendered opinions on hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of rare coins. Albanese continues to deal in high-end rare coins and to fight for the numismatic consumer.

And this isn't all JA has done.  My only question is:  Given his ability to move from one area to the next..............what will be next?   

[VKurtB]

47 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

What, if anything, do you do when you submit a coin and the grade is enough lower than you expected, such that you don’t understand it? Likewise, what if you get a details-grade on a coin that you see as clearly deserving a straight grade? Or has neither scenario ever occurred?

I've never had the experience of having sent in a coin and it got a lower grade than I could understand. Sometimes it takes extra looking, but I eventually find what they saw. Conversely, about HALF the time, the coin comes back with a higher grade than I might have reasonably hoped. I'm a tough bugger, especially on my own pieces. And no, I've never had a details coin returned to me that I didn't already suspect.

Edited May 22, 2021 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

10 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I've never had the experience of having sent in a coin and it got a lower grade than I could understand. Sometimes it takes extra looking, but I eventually find what they saw. Conversely, about HALF the time, the coin comes back with a higher grade than I might have reasonably hoped. I'm a tough bugger, especially on my own pieces. And no, I've never had a details coin returned to me that I didn't already suspect.

Thanks and seriously, good for you.

[VKurtB]

On 5/21/2021 at 3:30 PM, zadok said:

99% of the readers on this or any other forum still dont fully understand just what a cac green bean signifies on a slab...it does not add nor subtract from the grade on the slab, it has no influence on the grade on the slab, it almost certainly adds to the perception that that particular coin could possibly be a higher grade if not now in the future but that is not the intent of the bean...it simply put, indicates that that particular coin in that date n in that grade is in the top X% of all coins in that date n that grade that has been submitted to cac for evaluation, nothing more...obviously eye appeal, lustre, original color, lack of distracting marks etc enter into the formula (all subjective)...it does not mean e.g. that a '92-s morgan in xf45 is competing against a '93-s morgan in xf45, it means a '92-s morgan in xf45 is competing against all other '92-s morgans in xf45 that have been submitted...obviously there has to be a sliding scale because all '92-s morgans have not been submitted yet, but at the time the coin was evaluated it was in the top X% of those submitted up until that time...thats all that it means...all the rest is people's interpretation of what they believe it means, mostly incorrect assumptions...gold beans would be another discussion.....

Every word true. 

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Oldhoopster said:

Isn't that sort of what JA provides?  

No. Think of how courts of appeals work. The initial decision comes from a court with a single judge. The Court of Appeals, when getting to the case’s merits, is at least a three judge panel (federal) if not the whole court en banc. Then if it gets to the ultimate appeals court, you have NINE Justices. Coin grading is EXACTLY the reverse. We ordain not Bishops or Cardinals, but a god named John? Please, spare me. 

[Oldhoopster]

Wow, this is getting scary.  It sounds like you may be agreeing with QA.  Time to check out and make a Manhattan. 

[Alex in PA.]

12 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

it has no influence on the grade on the slab

It certainly does!  two coins, both 1880 CC, one NGC MS 65 the other PCGS MS 65 with Green CAC.  You will pay MS 64 money for the NGC and MS 65+ money for the PCGS CAC*    *Maybe as high as MS 66.  See EBay..  

Edited May 22, 2021 by Alex in PA.
Add information

[MarkFeld]

13 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Every word true. 

No, not these: “t simply put, indicates that that particular coin in that date n in that grade is inthe top X% of all coins in that date n that grade that has been submitted to cac”

As mentioned previously, CAC doesn’t award stickers based on percentages, but rather A, B and C coin classifications. And there’s no assurance that each of those is compromised of the same percentage of coins.

In addition to that, they don’t base their assessments just upon coins that have submitted. They evaluate each coin based upon its own individual merits, regardless of what’s been submitted previously. It’s not like they haven’t seen plenty of other coins over the years.

[MarkFeld]

21 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

It certainly does!  two coins, both 1880 CC, one NGC MS 65 the other PCGS MS 65 with Green CAC.  You will pay MS 64 money for the NGC and MS 65+ money for the PCGS CAC*    *Maybe as high as MS 66.  See EBay..  

What you described isn’t “the grade on the slab” being influenced. It’s the difference in the price paid and that’s something very different.

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Alex in PA. said:

It certainly does!  two coins, both 1880 CC, one NGC MS 65 the other PCGS MS 65 with Green CAC.  You will pay MS 64 money for the NGC and MS 65+ money for the PCGS CAC*    *Maybe as high as MS 66.  See EBay..  

Just pointing out this was a quoted passage by me, not my words. 

[VKurtB]

3 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

The phenomenon of "cracking out" coins signifies dissatisfaction bordering on outright refusal to accept a grading decision.

Close. It may just be attempting to run a scam, something at which many coin dealers are exceptionally adept. 

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

What you described isn’t “the grade on the slab” being influenced. It’s the difference in the price paid and that’s something very different.

And then only so if one chooses to play along. I, for one, refuse to. There is no obligation to participate. For those Internet dependent on dealing in graded coins, you have made your bed to lie down in. I still deal almost exclusively in auctions involving raw coins, now remotely from Alabama in back country Pennsylvania auctions. 
 

And I do so remotely because at 66 my brain only has so much tolerance remaining for the drivers on I-75 and I-81. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

7 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

So you don’t think that the major grading companies ever over-grade coins or straight-grade coins that should be in details-grade holders? And that a different expert’s opinion to that effect can be worthwhile?

Stipulated that my disdain for the CAC (and all sticker schemes) business model MIGHT be a minority viewpoint among my peers, but I suspect much less so than evidence on THIS board would indicate. I am prewired to reject numismatic deifications of nearly all types. Too much hero worship.