Is truthfullness a reasonable expectation from coin sellers? 1 1

[gmarguli]

 

On 5/21/2021 at 3:27 PM, MarkFeld said:

In the large majority of cases, I don’t think it’s necessarily about wanting the best coin or about ego. But rather, it’s a desire for confirmation of a coin’s quality (and thus, value) from a very highly regarded expert. Likewise, before buying NGC or PCGS graded coins, many collectors seek opinions from other collectors or dealers. They’re seeking reassurance regarding quality and value.

Shouldn't the collector just give up at this point and start to collect something else - perhaps rocks? At some point needing further reassurance just means you're a p***y!

And why stop at a CAC opinion? Let's start a service that gives an opinion on CAC stickered coins. And again and again. We can provide a dozen or two opinions on a coin so the frightened collectors can have a ton of reassurance without ever needing to learn anything, because god forbid they learn anything about grading the item they are spending their hard earned money on. 

 

21 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe, but JA is synonomous with CAC and is well-respected, do YOU know who the graders are at the TPG who went over your coins ?

 

Do YOU know who made the brakes on your car? No, but I suspect you believe the car company hired competent people and you have faith that your breaks are going to work. What does it say when a person has blind faith that their 3000 pound car will stop without killing them, but they need a third opinion before buying a trinket for their hobby. 

 

21 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

And one thing that hit like a heat-seeking missile was this statement:   if you complain or dislike grade inflation in the coin hobby, you can't be against CAC.

Actually, no. The idea that CAC will fight so-called gradeflation is completely a marketing ploy. If we take a solid MS65 graded today and CAC likes it, they give it a sticker. However, if the TPG alter their grading standards and now that coin is considered a solid MS66, CAC will still sticker it. If they don't change their standards along with the TPG, they will be out of business. CAC must adjust to the TPG, not the other way around. In the CAC/TPG relationship, CAC is the leach. 

 

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

As mentioned previously, CAC doesn’t award stickers based on percentages, but rather A, B and C coin classifications. And there’s no assurance that each of those is compromised of the same percentage of coins.

But A & B get a green sticker. How will buyers know if it is an A or B? The horror!! Shouldn't A coins get a better sticker? Perhaps a blue leach? 

[Revenant]

On 5/20/2021 at 3:39 PM, RWB said:

Comments on another thread got me to wondering if there is a reasonable expectation that coin sellers or TPGs be truthful in all respects?

Thoughts?

I would hope and expect a seller would not outright lie. That said, I also don't expect people to volunteer information that isn't helpful to them. I also naturally am a little more suspect of any statement of anyone trying to get money from me for any reason. 

[Henri Charriere]

4 hours ago, Alex in PA. said:

My only question is:  Given his ability to move from one area to the next..............what will be next?   

The gentleman is a calculating risk-taker, a quality I admire.  However, at this point in his life, he should consider quitting while he is still ahead with a well-earned, well-deserved retirement. If our Alex in PA has accorded him the numismatic equivalent of a Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, that's good enough for me.  

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Stipulated that my disdain for the CAC (and all sticker schemes) business model MIGHT be a minority viewpoint among my peers, but I suspect much less so than evidence on THIS board would indicate. I am prewired to reject numismatic deifications of nearly all types. Too much hero worship. 

I get where you are coming from, Kurt, but it's like a sporting contest with umpires or referees:  we may not like them personally or agree with all their decisions....but they are the neutral 3rd party that insures fair competition.  Not perfect competition, but generally fair.

Imagine selling/buying today on Ebay without TPGs.   It's one thing for GC and HA to give fair and accurate photos and descriptions of coins, but imagine how Ebay would work today if all coins were unslabbed, no TPG certification, and all coins "raw."

OMG.......

[Henri Charriere]

The vast majority of coins sold on the www. and eBay are not formally graded.

I was fortunate in that I took a chance and bought loose coins described the old-fashioned way as UNC or BU.  This may suit the mainstream collector as all ultimately turned out to be Mint State of varying degrees. For a high-end Set Registrant who wants to take a chance, he will more likely fail than succeed.

I strongly suspect my MS-67 🐓 which failed to cross-grade would have failed a fourth-party opinion because, given the opportunity to re-study its features mor closely, it failed miserably, in my book, solely to excessive chatter, particularly on the field and date on the obverse.  CAC will not appeal to be until I am certain it exemplifies that je ne sais quoi that boldly makes its presence known.  I have two such coins.

[Incidentally, I received two days ago a "mint state" copy of Eats, Shoots and Leaves never read) listing at &17.50, for less than quarter-price, dust jacket intact, shipping free and thank you for bringing it to my attention.  I have no doubt if I read if with undivided attention, I will become a better writer -- but others may lament the spontaneity of my old familiar antics. Thanks!]

[VKurtB]

18 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

I asked VKurtB because he’s the one who said 

Don't care, really I don't. NGC hired them to do this job. I trust NGC to make that decision, and I trust 3 from NGC over one guy in ALL circumstances, and I don't care WHO that one is.

Even though grading is subjective, I think it’s fair to say that just about everyone over-grades and under-grades coins, from time to time. Which is why I don’t understand someone deciding ahead of time that an additional expert opinion is a waste. 

A panel of three people hired by a reputable firm for their expertise in grading will ALWAYS get more respect from me than ANY single individual, with the exception of proven series specialists. Rick Snow for Indian Heads, Andy S. of Angel Dee’s or Carl Waltz of PA for matte proof Lincolns (they built Carl’s set together), the late great still not equaled J.H. Cline for Standing Libs, etc. plus apparently our own QA for the Coq Marianne. 
 

A serial “founder” who apparently lacks the will or attention span to stick with anything he founds doesn’t qualify in my opinion. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

16 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

A panel of three people hired by a reputable firm for their expertise in grading will ALWAYS get more respect from me than ANY single individual, with the exception of proven series specialists. Rick Snow for Indian Heads, Andy S. of Angel Dee’s or Carl Waltz of PA for matte proof Lincolns (they built Carl’s set together), the late great still not equaled J.H. Cline for Standing Libs, etc. plus apparently our own QA for the Coq Marianne. 
 

A serial “founder” who apparently lacks the will or attention span to stick with anything he founds doesn’t qualify in my opinion. 

You make it obvious that you don’t know the man. Suit yourself with what works for you.

[VKurtB]

Just now, MarkFeld said:

You make it obvious that you don’t know the man. Suit yourself with what works for you.

I’ve met him several times. Not a fan. 

[GoldFinger1969]

12 hours ago, gmarguli said:

Do YOU know who made the brakes on your car? No, but I suspect you believe the car company hired competent people and you have faith that your breaks are going to work. What does it say when a person has blind faith that their 3000 pound car will stop without killing them, but they need a third opinion before buying a trinket for their hobby.

 Not a really fair comparsions, Gmarguli.....brakes either work or don't.  Grading is subjective with a permittable range of opinions.  

[MarkFeld]

4 minutes ago, VKurtB said:I’ve met him several times. Not a fan. 

As I said, you don’t “know” him and I do.

It’s not that they don’t do a really good job, overall, but...the panels of graders that you’re apparently so pleased with, grade far more coins on a daily basis, don’t have as much time per coin, feel pressure to grade liberally from many submitters and from each other. Have at it - I’m done and we won’t change each other’s minds. 

[GoldFinger1969]

2 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

It’s not that they don’t do a really good job, overall, but...the panels of graders that you’re apparently so pleased with, grade far more coins on a daily basis, don’t have as much time per coin, feel pressure to grade liberally from many submitters and from each other. Have at it - I’m done and we won’t change each other’s minds. 

Mark, based on your past experience did you ever hear any of the junior or senior graders say that they'd prefer to go at a slower pace....that they needed more breaks.....complain about eye strain....etc.

I also wonder if the pressure was more at PCGS than NGC since they were publicly traded (not so anymore).

[MarkFeld]

2 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Mark, based on your past experience did you ever hear any of the junior or senior graders say that they'd prefer to go at a slower pace....that they needed more breaks.....complain about eye strain....etc.

I also wonder if the pressure was more at PCGS than NGC since they were publicly traded (not so anymore).

Not that I recall. But when I was a grader, the number of graders and daily volume of coins graded were both much smaller than they are these days.

[VKurtB]

25 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

As I said, you don’t “know” him and I do.

It’s not that they don’t do a really good job, overall, but...the panels of graders that you’re apparently so pleased with, grade far more coins on a daily basis, don’t have as much time per coin, feel pressure to grade liberally from many submitters and from each other. Have at it - I’m done and we won’t change each other’s minds. 

As a lifelong Pennsylvanian only recently “escaped” to Alabama, I genetically find many New Jerseyites unpalatable.

Laura Sperber, call your office. 
 

I lived less than 100 miles from south Jersey shore resorts, and only ever went there metaphorically being dragged kicking and screaming. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by VKurtB

[zadok]

15 hours ago, Alex in PA. said:

It certainly does!  two coins, both 1880 CC, one NGC MS 65 the other PCGS MS 65 with Green CAC.  You will pay MS 64 money for the NGC and MS 65+ money for the PCGS CAC*    *Maybe as high as MS 66.  See EBay..  

no one ever said that an ngc 65 n an pcgs 65 r the same or equal....i seriously doubt the dealer with a ngc 65 non-cac is going sell his coin for 64 money...the 65 with cac prob will bring 65+ money....in this instance the cac coin prob does appear to be the superior coin, could just as easy be the other way around...not all 65 coins r equal, hence the A,B,C tiers, whether we agree or not....

[zadok]

15 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

No, not these: “t simply put, indicates that that particular coin in that date n in that grade is inthe top X% of all coins in that date n that grade that has been submitted to cac”

As mentioned previously, CAC doesn’t award stickers based on percentages, but rather A, B and C coin classifications. And there’s no assurance that each of those is compromised of the same percentage of coins.

In addition to that, they don’t base their assessments just upon coins that have submitted. They evaluate each coin based upon its own individual merits, regardless of what’s been submitted previously. It’s not like they haven’t seen plenty of other coins over the years.

in hind site perhaps using X% to differentiate between best, better, good was a bit confusing, tiers a,b,c serves the same purpose to illustrate the point being made....after all tiers a,b,c represent a certain %age of the coins in that date n grade even if that %age is adjusted after each coin evaluated...my narrative was generally based on a conversation i had with ja years ago when he then used the word % to clarify a question i had asked...im sure their metrics have had some revisions n terminology changes since then.....

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

 Not a really fair comparsions, Gmarguli.....brakes either work or don't.  Grading is subjective with a permittable range of opinions.  

Not even true about brakes. There are degrees of “working”. Trust me. Been there. Three weeks after the brakes were done, a caliper FELL OFF. Up until then, no problem. 

[VKurtB]

As long as CAC exists, neither major firm can justify calling anyone in their grading room a “finalizer”. They’re ceded that role to John. 

[GoldFinger1969]

7 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Not even true about brakes. There are degrees of “working”. Trust me. Been there. Three weeks after the brakes were done, a caliper FELL OFF. Up until then, no problem. 

OK.....but brakes either PASS or FAIL inspection. 

How's that ?  

Edited May 23, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

2 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

OK.....but brakers either PASS or FAIL inspection. 

How's that ?  

In Alabama, there ain’t no inspections. Yee haw! There are more liability lawyer TV ads than for drugs, though. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

Not that I recall. But when I was a grader, the number of graders and daily volume of coins graded were both much smaller than they are these days.

PMB. No, not PMD. PMB. Pre Monster Box. (And let's not forget that JA interview in which he disclosed/reminded readers the resounding success of implementing TPG -- a novel, new and untried innovation -- created a back-log of ten months.)

[Alex in PA.]

23 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

As long as CAC exists, neither major firm can justify calling anyone in their grading room a “finalizer”. They’re ceded that role to John. 

Definitely agree.  However, I will continue to accept the decisions of those graders who are employed by NGC and the folks ATS.  No other hobby I know of has an 'Evaluation' of the final grades.  Not Currency, Base Ball Cards, Comic Books, etc.  There comes a point where each of us must trust; I have reached mine and others will find theirs.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Alex in PA.
Spelling

[MarkFeld]

27 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

Definitely agree.  However, I will continue to accept the decisions of those graders who are employed by NGC and the folks ATS.  No other hobby I know of has an 'Evaluation' of the final grades.  Not Currency, Base Ball Cards, Comic Books, etc.  There comes a point where each of us must trust; I have reached mine and others will finds theirs.

Any hobby where grades are assigned, has an evaluation of the grades. Grades aren’t “final” and the evaluation occurs when the item is resubmitted or submitted to a different evaluator.

And let’s not forget, it’s not as if lots of coins with CAC stickers aren’t re-graded or cracked out, as well.

Edited May 23, 2021 by MarkFeld

[Henri Charriere]

20 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

In Alabama, there ain’t no inspections. Yee haw! There are more liability lawyer TV ads than for drugs, though. 

I hope they paint those white and yellow road lines regularly and replace those bullet-riddled highway signs used for target practice. Other than that, and the occasional monsoon and tornado, you ought to be alright.

[Oldhoopster]

52 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

As long as CAC exists, neither major firm can justify calling anyone in their grading room a “finalizer”. They’re ceded that role to John. 

Other than the fee paid, how is asking JA for his opinion on a slabbed coin any different than asking a respected dealer or numismatist?  If I post a pic and ask what the group thinks, does that also mean that the finalizer is irrelevant?  

I'm not saying CAC is good or bad, just trying to understand why you keep pushing your disdain for something that the hobby appears to have embraced.  

Knowledge is power.  The more proficient you are at grading, the better chance you'll have of buying great coins that will be easy to resell when the time comes.  if you have a solid coin, a good dealer will know it regardless of if it's slabbed, beaned, or whatever.  They still may lowball you, but if you know your stuff, you'll find a buyer. 

Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's how the game Is played today.  You can sit in the corner and "hurumph" until the cows come home, but don't expect people to change their way if thinking because you don't like it. Just my thoughts

[VKurtB]

28 minutes ago, Oldhoopster said:

Other than the fee paid, how is asking JA for his opinion on a slabbed coin any different than asking a respected dealer or numismatist?  If I post a pic and ask what the group thinks, does that also mean that the finalizer is irrelevant?  

I'm not saying CAC is good or bad, just trying to understand why you keep pushing your disdain for something that the hobby appears to have embraced.  

Knowledge is power.  The more proficient you are at grading, the better chance you'll have of buying great coins that will be easy to resell when the time comes.  if you have a solid coin, a good dealer will know it regardless of if it's slabbed, beaned, or whatever.  They still may lowball you, but if you know your stuff, you'll find a buyer. 

Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's how the game Is played today.  You can sit in the corner and "hurumph" until the cows come home, but don't expect people to change their way if thinking because you don't like it. Just my thoughts

I never expect ANYONE to change. But I do expect them to think for themselves and not be herd followers, and I see precious little of that. If I were an active “marketer” of coins, regularly conducting frequent transactions, I likely would think differently. But I am about as far from that as possible. Yesterday, I bought my first coin this year, aside from direct mint purchases. And yes, it was a raw coin in the mid three figures price range. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by VKurtB

[Alex in PA.]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

Grades aren’t “final” and the evaluation occurs when the item is resubmitted or submitted to a different evaluator.

Absolutely, and if you remember my previous post I have done that.  However, this occurs only when I am not satisfied with the grades I receive which is on rare occasions.

 

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

And let’s not forget, it’s not as if lots of coins with CAC stickers aren’t re-graded or cracked out, as well.

Edited 45 minutes ago by MarkFeld

Yes, there are those folks who are in a never ending search for the highest grade they can get for a resale value.  

[VKurtB]

16 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

Absolutely, and if you remember my previous post I have done that.  However, this occurs only when I am not satisfied with the grades I receive which is on rare occasions.

 

Yes, there are those folks who are in a never ending search for the highest grade they can get for a resale value.  

In case QA doesn’t know it yet, THAT last part is the thing that drives the crack-out culture. It’s a casino. It’s trying to game the system even if there’s only 1 chance in 10 of getting a higher grade. When prices raise so ridiculously based on a single point, that’s what happens. 

[VKurtB]

53 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

Absolutely, and if you remember my previous post I have done that.  However, this occurs only when I am not satisfied with the grades I receive which is on rare occasions.

 

Yes, there are those folks who are in a never ending search for the highest grade they can get for a resale value.  

It becomes beyond ridiculous when a beaned coin is regarded as more desirable than an unbeaned coin at the next higher grade. Logic ceases to exist. 
 

Further, while we still haven’t achieved a respectable record of the exact same coin even fairly regularly getting the same numerical grade (in the MS range), we need somebody to split each number into thirds? Please. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

4 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

It becomes beyond ridiculous when a beaned coin is regarded as more desirable than an unbeaned coin at the next higher grade. Logic ceases to exist. 

I think it’s short-sighted to make such judgment without seeing the two coins in hand. 
And you can remove CAC from the equation. Sometimes a coin of one grade justifiably sells for more than another that’s a grade higher.

Edited May 23, 2021 by MarkFeld

[VKurtB]

3 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

I think it’s short-sighted to make such judgment without seeing the two coins in hand. 

That is the point at which TPG grading has been rendered irrelevant and we have returned to the status quo ante before TPG. This is all about trying to say grading needs to return to where it was at some point in the past, and it has gotten worse since. I simply reject that view. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by VKurtB