Is truthfullness a reasonable expectation from coin sellers? 1 1

[MarkFeld]

9 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

That is the point at which TPG grading has been rendered irrelevant and we have returned to the status quo ante before TPG. This is all about trying to say grading needs to return to where it was at some point in the past, and it has gotten worse since. I simply reject that view. 

It has nothing to do with trying to say that about grading. It’s merely acknowledging the fact that with all of the thousands of coins that are graded each week, even if a small percentage are graded too liberally or too conservatively - and of course they are - there are still countless coins on the market that are mis-graded. And one way or another, many sharp collectors and dealers make the most of it.

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

It has nothing to do with trying to say that about grading. It’s merely acknowledging the fact that with all of the thousands of coins that are graded each week, even if a small percentage are graded too liberally or too conservatively - and of course they are - there are still countless coins on the market that are mis-graded. And one way or another, many sharp collectors and dealers make the most of it.

But JA is infallible? JC, maybe. But He didn’t pass judgment on coins. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

8 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

But JA is infallible? JC, maybe. But He didn’t pass judgment on coins. 

No and no, of course not. No one is.

[Henri Charriere]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

In case QA doesn’t know it yet, THAT last part is the thing that drives the crack-out culture. It’s a casino. . .

One look at my Set Registry ("Rooster Roster"over there) illustrates my problem. Seven, nearly half, of the 16 coins in the 🐓 series (1899-1914) are top-grade, none having  been graded higher by any TPGS on the face of the earth.  All the cracking out in the world will not change that. What resubmission for reconsideration will do is irritate, aggravate and ultimately infuriate graders who are burdened with more legitimate tasks.

To speed matters up, I have resorted to discreetly making offers to owners of elusive dates, or dealers who stand a chance of coming across any, an offer they cannot refuse.  I will be the first to admit this strategy is highly-questionable, at least, and downright deplorable, at worst. 

[VKurtB]

3 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

One look at my Set Registry ("Rooster Roster"over there) illustrates my problem. Seven, nearly half, of the 16 coins in the 🐓 series (1899-1914) are top-grade, none having  been graded higher by any TPGS on the face of the earth.  All the cracking out in the world will not change that. What resubmission for reconsideration will do is irritate, aggravate and ultimately infuriate graders who are burdened with more legitimate tasks.

To speed matters up, I have resorted to discreetly making offers to owners of elusive dates, or dealers who stand a chance of coming across any, an offer they cannot refuse.  I will be the first to admit this strategy is highly-questionable, at least, and downright deplorable, at worst. 

It is a strategy designed for a capitalistic world. 

[Henri Charriere]

2 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

It is a strategy designed for a capitalistic world. 

[To my knowledge, my father (deceased, age 96) embraced the U.S.S.R., CHINA AND NORTH KOREA, CUBA, CAMBODIA, etc.  He dismissed any criticism as propaganda. I don't think he knew the extent of the Nazi atrocities until after he came to this country with my mother in the late 1940's.  Both were observant atheists. It goes without saying we all lived frugally. Collecting coins from circulating change, in and of itself, is harmless. But the financialization of select inventory and weaponization of grading is what has changed (and maybe saved) a once lackluster hobby.

[VKurtB]

6 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[To my knowledge, my father (deceased, age 96) embraced the U.S.S.R., CHINA AND NORTH KOREA, CUBA, CAMBODIA, etc.  He dismissed any criticism as propaganda. I don't think he knew the extent of the Nazi atrocities until after he came to this country with my mother in the late 1940's.  Both were observant atheists. It goes without saying we all lived frugally. Collecting coins from circulating change, in and of itself, is harmless. But the financialization of select inventory and weaponization of grading is what has changed (and maybe saved) a once lackluster hobby.

My forebears would have gladly shot at yours. Maybe I would have too. I am the most fervent anti-Communist of which I am aware. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

My forebears would have gladly shot at yours. Maybe I would have too. I am the most fervent anti-Communist of which I am aware. 

One more thing, he totally denied there was an Armenian massacre in 1915 and ridiculed the idea that six million people could have been exterminated in Nazi death camps as physically impossible given the time frame. From what I have observed, the common ant practices communism.  As always, I am obliged to defend, with my life, any thought that crosses your mind.  

Edited May 23, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Contraction

[VKurtB]

27 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

One more thing, he totally denied there was an Armenian massacre in 1915 and ridiculed the idea that six million people could have been exterminated in Nazi death camps as physically impossible given the time frame. From what I have observed, the common ant practices communism.  As ways, I am obliged to defend, with my life, any thought that crosses your mind.  

Speaking of ants, we have the tiny itty bitty sugar ants in numbers and places we don’t enjoy. Any ideas? Holocaust denial is a whole extra level of troubling. My uncle helped liberate a camp. He could only talk about it briefly before becoming overwhelmed. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

6 hours ago, VKurtB said:

I never expect ANYONE to change. But I do expect them to think for themselves and not be herd followers, and I see precious little of that. If I were an active “marketer” of coins, regularly conducting frequent transactions, I likely would think differently. But I am about as far from that as possible. Yesterday, I bought my first coin this year, aside from direct mint purchases. And yes, it was a raw coin in the mid three figures price range. 

Kurt, not everybody interested in coins is as smart as you are.  Many can't spend the time that you do....or those reading these forum messages.

That's why the TPGs are critical IMO.  We can debate CAC separately and if it is overkill or not.

But not everybody "into coins" is going to be taking seminars, going to dealers every week, flying to coin shows, and spending 10 or 20 or 50 hours a week on coins and grading.  For many/most....it's a FUN hobby and the TPG's help them make informed decisions.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, VKurtB said:

But JA is infallible? JC, maybe. But He didn’t pass judgment on coins. 

I didn't know JC got turned down by PCGS and NGC.  The nerve !!! 

 

[VKurtB]

33 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Kurt, not everybody interested in coins is as smart as you are.  Many can't spend the time that you do....or those reading these forum messages.

That's why the TPGs are critical IMO.  We can debate CAC separately and if it is overkill or not.

But not everybody "into coins" is going to be taking seminars, going to dealers every week, flying to coin shows, and spending 10 or 20 or 50 hours a week on coins and grading.  For many/most....it's a FUN hobby and the TPG's help them make informed decisions.

Or to put it another way, TPGS and sticker companies make it easier for dilettantes to play? Oh, yay! /eye roll.   Look up the word ‘dilettante’ online. You basically nailed it.

Edited May 23, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

@RWB @VKurtB @GoldFinger1969 et al.

[One could say I am now prepared to contradict myself but would you rather have consistency, or re-consideration from QA?  I have apparently deluded myself into believing I could assemble a class collection relying solely on the strength of other peoples' opinions and footwork. 

RWB has previously contended the reason why no high-grade 🐓 have surfaced is because not enough have been submitted and in Europe where most reside, TPGS are only now becoming an accepted part of coin collecting.

VKurtB's approach, up close and personal examination ultimately makes the most sense however impractical that may be to me at my age with my better half insisting she accompany me everywhere I go. (On our first "date," after we got married, already well into our Sixties, I took her to see "Eight Days A Week." She had never heard of the Beatles, was unfamiliar with their work -- and had never been on a date and had never been inside a darkened theater.

If you're young like GoldFinger1969 and have the energy and resources, the sky is the limit.

But reviewing my holdings recently, I quickly realized, and the various Set Rdgistries have confirmed that the gentleman who billed his collection the World's Finest, is now in 5th Place as new people join and others, weighing their chances, simply leave.  I do not want to blame the pandemic for my difficulties but what I ought to do is divest myself of coins set aside through upgrading.

By the Fourth of July, NGC will examine my coin and pronounce sentence. If they rule thumbs down, I will dissolve the Herodotus Hoard. If what World Colonial claims is true, and we are perfectly capable of living within our modest means, I will continue to enrich the New York State lottery and hope the light at the end of the tunnel is that 1908 S-G our colleague GF1969 wants so badly. My wife and I have learned to live modestly with very little.   

*     *      *

[VKurtB]

12 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

@RWB @VKurtB @GoldFinger1969 et al.

[One could say I am now prepared to contradict myself but would you rather have consistency, or re-consideration from QA?  I have apparently deluded myself into believing I could assemble a class collection relying solely on the strength of other peoples' opinions and footwork. 

RWB has previously contended the reason why no high-grade 🐓 have surfaced is because not enough have been submitted and in Europe where most reside, TPGS are only now becoming an accepted part of coin collecting.

VKurtB's approach, up close and personal examination ultimately makes the most sense however impractical that may be to me at my age with my better half insisting she accompany me everywhere I go. (On our first "date," after we got married, already well into our Sixties, I took her to see "Eight Days A Week." She had never heard of the Beatles, was unfamiliar with their work -- and had never been on a date and had never been inside a darkened theater.

If you're young like GoldFinger1969 and have the energy and resources, the sky is the limit.

But reviewing my holdings recently, I quickly realized, and the various Set Rdgistries have confirmed that the gentleman who billed his collection the World's Finest, is now in 5th Place as new people join and others, weighing their chances, simply leave.  I do not want to blame the pandemic for my difficulties but what I ought to do is divest myself of coins set aside through upgrading.

By the Fourth of July, NGC will examine my coin and pronounce sentence. If they rule thumbs down, I will dissolve the Herodotus Hoard. If what World Colonial claims is true, and we are perfectly capable of living within our modest means, I will continue to enrich the New York State lottery and hope the light at the end of the tunnel is that 1908 S-G our colleague GF1969 wants so badly. My wife and I have learned to live modestly with very little.   

*     *      *

If RWB wrote that, I agree 100%. I am in a similar position in another series. I own three "1/0" coins - finest known with no others graded higher NOR EQUAL. Why? Almost none are graded at all. There are equals out there, I KNOW THERE ARE. I've seen them myself. But they've never been to a TPGS, nor should they be. Mine are in NGC plastic for a non-registry, non-financial reason. I NEVER assume that what's in a NGC or PCGS pop report in any way resembles what it out there. There simply is too much great remaining material out there raw. I encounter it almost every day I look.

Edited May 24, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

I can state with some confidence that of the 16 official circulation strike 🐓 🐓 extant, two, both 1899, the first date minted (but not the rarest (1900) was graded MS-66 by both NGC and PCGS, 1/0, neither of which appear in any Set Registry.  None of my 🐓's are unique.