Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[GoldFinger1969]

Rarity Rankings:  I thought I had posted this before, but I guess not.  Anyway, it now covers 3 decades and nearly 80 years.

Below you can see the Top 15 coins from Ultra-Rare to Semi-Rare based on various rankings.  The 1940's/1950's was before the wave of hoards hit from Europe and South/Central America and based on dealers guestimates.  The 2000's was based on the Akers/Ambio Gold book rankings.  The 2020's rankings are based on Roger's book.

I mentioned before how the 1921 had moved less over the decades than other coins, you can see that below.  It moves from 4th to 3rd to 6th.  Other coins move up or down alot more.

Rarity Rankings, 1940's/1950's:

ULTRA-RARE….1924-S, 1926-D, 1926-S

SUPER-RARE….1921, 1927-S, 1931-D

RARE……………1925-D, 1927-D, 1930-S

SEMI-RARE……1922-S, 1929, 1931, 1920-S, 1908-S, 1924-D

 

Rarity Rankings, 2000’s:

ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1921

SUPER-RARE……1920-S, 1931, 1932

RARE……………..1931-D, 1927-S, 1926-D

SEMI-RARE………1929, 1908-S, 1925-S, 1925-D, 1909-D, 1924-S

 

Rarity Rankings, 2020’s:

ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1932

SUPER-RARE….....1931, 1931-D, 1921 

RARE………………1920-S, 1927-S, 1929

SEMI-RARE………1926-D, 1925-D, 1924-S, 1909-D, 1924-D, 1908-S

 

NOTE:  OBVIOUSLY, THE 1933 WAS NOT INCLUDED IN THESE RANKINGS

Edited May 14, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

MCMVII High Relief Mintage:  I'm surprised at how many web sites, catalogs, articles, etc....all use the 11,250 number for the mintage of the MCMVII High Relief.  As the book shows, the correct figure was 12,367.

And I believe that figure (12,367) was circulated BEFORE the publication of the book (2018) so I am surprised it remains uncorrected on still-frequented websites (I understand old articles/catalogs/etc. not going back and changing numbers after the fact).  As an example, PCGS Coin Facts still uses 11,250.

Not sure why there is the 1,117 numerical discrepancy and why it remains uncorrected on popular websites.

Edited May 16, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Change in numismatics (no pun intended) is extremely slow.

[Henri Charriere]

3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

MCMVII High Relief Mintage:  I'm surprised at how many web sites, catalogs, articles, etc....all use the 11,250 number for the mintage of the MCMVII High Relief.  As the book shows, the correct figure was 12,367.

And I believe that figure (12,367) was circulated BEFORE the publication of the book (2018) so I am surprised it remains uncorrected on still-frequented websites (I understand old articles/catalogs/etc. not going back and changing numbers after the fact).  As an example, PCGS Coin Facts still uses 11,250.

Not sure why there is the 1,117 numerical discrepancy and why it remains uncorrected on popular websites.

Respectfully, which figure reflects a smaller and therefore scarcer issue? The figure you maintain as being correct, 12,367, or the incorrect, but sexier 11,250?   🤔

[GoldFinger1969]

31 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Respectfully, which figure reflects a smaller and therefore scarcer issue? The figure you maintain as being correct, 12,367, or the incorrect, but sexier 11,250?   🤔

Well, truthfully there's not much of a difference in total coin numbers -- about 10% -- but even if the original figure were alot lower the PERCEPTION of rarity would be different from the ACTUAL rarity.

I mean....if the mintage was said to be 100....and dealers themselves know there are THOUSANDS for sure as they each have had access to dozens at any moment in time.....the price might be a bit higher and more volatile but I doubt it would be as high as the Fab Five (1929-32 Saints) each of which at one time had about 100 coins, give-or-take.  Eventually, a pretty accurate census take would be established....and price and supply would stabilize at a fair value.

Remember, the population census for the 1903-O Morgan Silver Dollar was ultra-rare in 1962 before the Treasury Hoard hit....but the price plummeted even thoughthe "official" census showed it to be rare.  Dealers were getting hit from everywhere so prices fell.

Edited May 16, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RAJ on COINS]

Just an FYI...

Great Collections has an "un-attributed" PCGS MS-63 1922 DDR on auction ending tonight...

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/973326/1922-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-63

This particular variety is in the Cherrypickers guide, which means PCGS will attribute it if it is sent in...

It is also in the "MEGA RED" redbook, one of only 3 entries, so it is one of the more "important" Saint varieties.

There are only about 42 of these in attributed slabs at the moment...

 

 

 

[RAJ on COINS]

Thje "notches" at the stems of the A and R in Dollars are the pick-up points.

[RWB]

Scruffy coin. No better than Unc-62 assuming one has cataracts.

[RWB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I mean....if the mintage was said to be 100....and dealers themselves know there are THOUSANDS for sure as they each have had access to dozens at any moment in time.....the price might be a bit higher and more volatile

Hence the origin of "condition rarity" as another selling tout. Kind of like Carnies calling "last of the funnel cakes!"

Edited May 16, 2021 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

Ross, you have a DDR -- what's the grade ?

[RAJ on COINS]

17 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Ross, you have a DDR -- what's the grade ?

Yes.. I have a few of them.  My highest is a 65.  There were a total of 8 in 65 with none higher when last I looked in March.

Agree...that 63 is a bit of a train wreck...  I will not be bidding. 

[RAJ on COINS]

I tried to get Ian Russell to mention it in the listing, but he won't do it if it isn't on the slab...

Typical dealer.  ( I bet he would mention an unattributed '55 double die cent... ) 

[RAJ on COINS]

...if not for the variety, that coin is COMPLETELY uninteresting....

[GoldFinger1969]

Keep an eye out for more 1922 DDR's, Ross.....when funds are plentiful, I would definitely have interest.  Loved your analysis and the back-and-forth with Roger on that year. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, in your research did you ever hear of any mini-hoard of MCMVII High Reliefs ? 

I've never read about one....you would think with all the "hoarding" of the 1907 HR coins as they arrived to great expectations that maybe some wealthy individual in Boston, NY, or Philly would have had 10-20 of the coins and they got passed down over time.

But maybe not........

 

[GoldFinger1969]

11 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Roger, in your research did you ever hear of any mini-hoard of MCMVII High Reliefs ? 

Well, the answer was right here....on the NGC Boards !! 

"The actor Adolphe Menjou had a particular penchant for the coin; he accumulated 250 pieces before his hoard was dispersed in the 1970s." 

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/saint-gaudens-20-1907-1933-pscid-70

[GoldFinger1969]

16 hours ago, Ross J said:

Agree...that 63 is a bit of a train wreck...  I will not be bidding.

It went for $1,950 (about $2,200 w/bp).  Not much of a variety premium, if any.

[RWB]

In the past there were several small hoards of MCMVII $20 including the one already mentioned. To the best of my knowledge the last one was disbursed by Stacks-Bowers several years ago. The prime time to assemble a group of these was in the 1950s and 60s - they were available, mostly undipped or manipulated, and comparatively cheap. All were considered in the DE book.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/16/2021 at 5:34 PM, Ross J said:

I tried to get Ian Russell to mention it in the listing, but he won't do it if it isn't on the slab...

If you contact him again, ask him when they will have an App like HA. 

[GoldFinger1969]

10 hours ago, RWB said:

The prime time to assemble a group of these was in the 1950s and 60s - they were available, mostly undipped or manipulated, and comparatively cheap. All were considered in the DE book.

What was considered in the book ?

[RWB]

8 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

What was considered in the book ?

The various hoards of MCMVII coins.

[GoldFinger1969]

12 minutes ago, RWB said:

The various hoards of MCMVII coins.

I must have forgotten about them.  Surprising, since that was such a unique coin.  I'll re-read that section tonight, thanks Roger.

I went through the book a few weeks ago and wrote down the hoard findings for every type as a resource piece.  Must have started with the 1908's instead of the MCMVII pairs.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, RWB said:

The various hoards of MCMVII coins.

I didn't see any hoards mentioned in the MCMVII HR chapter, Roger, after doing a quickie scan.  I saw Menjou's name mentioned for Kosoff's auction but that was it.  

Do you have a page # ?

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

I did not specifically call them out. Used them in verifying other data.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

I did not specifically call them out. Used them in verifying other data.

What was the original source, Auction Catalogs ?  I've never read about any hoard -- other than this actor's little stash -- for the MCMVII High Relief.  You read all the time about the hoards from the 1950's and 1960's and the famous El Salvador 1983 MTB Hoard.

BTW, great job in giving details on the 1983 MTB in the book/footnotes.  Too bad their records got destroyed by flooding. 

[RWB]

Yes, they were very cooperative and devoted time to checking their files, but everything from that period was ruined.

Auctions, articles, interviews - estate records, etc. Nothing really to write about. Dispersal in 1907-08 was extensive.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Yes, they were very cooperative and devoted time to checking their files, but everything from that period was ruined. Auctions, articles, interviews - estate records, etc. Nothing really to write about. Dispersal in 1907-08 was extensive.

I'm surprised they didn't keep keep records off the floor level, just to be safe.  Or digitalize them and scan them before Sandy.  Too bad....Bauman is deceased, Akers too, probably nobody else can provide information on the 1983 Hoard. 

[RWB]

Digitizing paper is expensive. A common rule is that if the docs have not been requested for 10 years, then they go to the end of the queue. I was fortunate to talk to someone who was active in the company back then and understood what I was asking about.

Much of the eyes-on truth has passed away, leaving us guessing.

Edited May 19, 2021 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

Jeff Garrett Commentaries:  They're almost 10 years old and pretty short, but they are online and right here at this site.  Until HA puts out an online version of Roger's book or at least the Commentary sections, this is a nice addition to the HA commentaries on their auction site (which I also have in PDF form, if anybody wants it).

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/2685/Saint-Gaudens-Double-Eagles-1907-1909-S/

[RAJ on COINS]

On 5/17/2021 at 9:50 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It went for $1,950 (about $2,200 w/bp).  Not much of a variety premium, if any.

Well how would we know?  Since it is not attributed on the slab and the Auctioneer (Great Collections) would not mention it in their description, (despite being told about it by me),  then to say that the variety didn't bring a premium is not accurate, since most to all bidders were probably not aware of it. If GC's images were better (like Heritages) so that cherrypickers could at least spot it, it might have done better.  Then again, it is something of a dog of a coin.  I would just say that nothing was proven here with regards to premiums.  One needs to look at auctions of attributed slabs with catalog descriptions referencing it (and perhaps its scarcity) before making any meaningful statements about premiums.