Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[RWB]

3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Roger, is it possible to get the breakdown in your population census calculations for the coins that graded MS60-62 ? 

Well.....it might be if the data recovery company can get the files off a failed USB drive. All of my DE and E book data, plus about 50 articles is on the drive. The backup turned out to be corrupt - "Thank you, Mr. Cloud!"

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, RWB said:

Well.....it might be if the data recovery company can get the files off a failed USB drive. All of my DE and E book data, plus about 50 articles is on the drive. The backup turned out to be corrupt - "Thank you, Mr. Cloud!"

Argghh....a double-digital failure.   Good luck, keep me posted !

Maybe I'll just tabulate all the MS65 and above data. 

[RWB]

There's also most of a half eagle book (Pratt) there, too.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 minute ago, RWB said:

There's also most of a half eagle book (Pratt) there, too.

Do they think the drives are recoverable ?  It's usually just a question of $$$ unless the thing was smashed and dipped in acid.

[RWB]

The cloud data is corrupt - that was my backup. No more.

The USB was fine, then just stopped. The data recovery contractor quoted $1,400 -- if they can recover it. Lot of dollars for a small pile of on-off switches.

[GoldFinger1969]

15 minutes ago, RWB said:

The USB was fine, then just stopped. The data recovery contractor quoted $1,400 -- if they can recover it. Lot of dollars for a small pile of on-off switches.

Shop around....that seems excessive.  If the guy knows who you are and what's on it, they jack up the price.  My friend got quoted like $5,000 a few years ago because his business is well-known in the area.  Shopped around....excercised patience....got it done for like $1,200 or something like that, 75% savings.

[Henri Charriere]

[Permit me to be the first to congratulate you as you bear down on the milestone up ahead reading "1,000 posts on this topic."  Very informative and entertaining!  Great stuff!]

[Cersderouu]

I adore this book and recommend it to all my friends. While writing my term paper, I referred to this book and was praised by the teacher. Specifically, now I work with Essayservicescanner because here are the best reviews of services that can help you learn. Among the ideal for me is a Papersowl review. I found the perfect help in their face and also in the resources of your forum. Thank you for sharing such books and tips in general.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Cersderouu

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Cersderouu said:

I adore this book and recommend it to all my friends. While writing my term paper, I referred to this book and was praised by the teacher. Cool.

Fantastic and congratulations....what was your term paper on ?  Did you read the entire book or just sections ?

[RWB]

2 hours ago, Cersderouu said:

I adore this book and recommend it to all my friends. While writing my term paper, I referred to this book and was praised by the teacher. Cool.

Neat! Really nice when an author learns someone found his work useful in an unexpected way.

Edited April 13, 2021 by RWB

[Cersderouu]

6 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Fantastic and congratulations....what was your term paper on ?  Did you read the entire book or just sections ?

Unfortunately, I haven't read it completely yet. I am still in the process of writing. My course on the topic "Development and process of currency formation from metal to the most valuable unit".

[Cersderouu]

6 hours ago, RWB said:

Neat! Really nice when an author learns someone found his work useful in an unexpected way.

The book is really very useful. And I want to thank you for such diligent work on this.

[RWB]

50 minutes ago, Cersderouu said:

Unfortunately, I haven't read it completely yet. I am still in the process of writing. My course on the topic "Development and process of currency formation from metal to the most valuable unit".

You might check out the book From Mine to Mint - it emphasizes minting technology and operations from about 1836-1935.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Cersderouu said:

Unfortunately, I haven't read it completely yet. I am still in the process of writing. My course on the topic "Development and process of currency formation from metal to the most valuable unit".

You know better than us, but I think a theme mentioned in the book is worth considering in your paper (if you haven't used it already).

Basically, most of the gold (and silver) coins found VERY LITTLE mass circulation in commerce and among ordinary Americans....gold coins....and especially the large 1 oz. Double Eagles (Liberty and Saint-Gaudens).  After the Civil War, Americans gradually came to trust paper currency.  Silver and Gold Certificates (backed by the metals) were preferred, but the Rise Of The Dollar was on its way.

Since your paper appears to involve the switch from precious metals to paper, I thought that might be of use.  Some of the special chapters in the book go into it in more depth.

Anyway, when I first got into collecting and researching Saints, I was shocked at how few of the millions of annual Saints minted were actually used in everyday commerce (usually hundreds, maybe 1-2 thousands, tops).  And of course, if not for going overseas or South of The Border....we'd have very few of these coins to collect today.

Edited April 13, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Annealing:  Let's talk about this process on the 1907 UHR's, which really seems like it would have slowed down the production time (I think the book mentioned 12 minutes per coin for the High Reliefs, not sure how long it took to complete a UHR). 

I'm wondering a few things on annealing:

• If annealing stripped off copper, didn't the weight/composition of the UHR coin change ?
• Would it have been necessary for that fine gold finish if you had .999 gold or anything finer than 90% gold, 10% copper ?
• Were High Reliefs also annealed ?  I don't think so but want to confirm.
• Is this process used today ?  It seems very time consuming and if the goal is a surface of pure gold you can get that by increasing the gold purity though the coin will be softer without another metal.

[RWB]

The purpose of annealing is to reduce hardening of metal attributed to manipulation: i.e. "work hardening."

MCMVII $20 were annealed after the first and second blows from hydraulic medal press.

MCMVII EHR pattern $20 were annealed after each blow from a hydraulic medal press. It took 7 blows to bring up the full design, so there were 6 annealing cycles.

After each heating the coin was dipped in weak acid to remove any oxidized copper. This resulted in the patterns having significant copper depletion on the surfaces - in some instances the surfaces are 99% gold. MCMVII pieces were intended for circulation and the two annealing cycles had only minor change in the gold surface.

Planchets purchased from contractors are delivered ready to use. Planchets cut and upset at the US Mints are annealed before stamping.

[GoldFinger1969]

What about the weight tolerance and the copper being stripped off ?

Maybe they made the coins a bit "heavier" to compensate ?

Edited April 14, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

The weight did not matter for the patterns.

The circulation MCMVII had so little copper removed that they remained within tolerance. However, the fin, was a problem. There is a Dec 1907 letter from the director about this and the high rejection rate by inspectors/Adjusters. This led to revisions in planchet upsetting that eliminated most of the fin.

All the details are in Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908.

Edited April 14, 2021 by RWB

[Cersderouu]

On 14.04.2021 at 01:05, GoldFinger1969 said:

Ви знаєте краще за нас, але я думаю, що тема, згадана в книзі, варта розглянути у вашій роботі (якщо ви не використовували її вже).

В основному, більшість золотих (і срібних) монет знайшли ДУЖЕ МАЛИЙ масовий обіг у торгівлі та серед звичайних американців .... золоті монети .... і особливо великі 1 унція. Подвійні орли (Свобода і Сен-Годен). Після громадянської війни американці поступово стали довіряти паперовій валюті. Срібні та золоті сертифікати (підкріплені металами) були кращими, але Rise Of The Dollar був на шляху.

Оскільки у вашому папері передбачається перехід від дорогоцінних металів до паперу, я думав, що це може бути корисно. Деякі спеціальні розділи книги розглядають її більш глибоко.

У будь-якому випадку, коли я вперше зайнявся колекціонуванням та дослідженням святих, я був шокований тим, як мало хто з мільйонів щорічних карбованих святих насправді використовувався у повсякденній торгівлі (зазвичай сотні, а може, 1-2 тисячі вершин). І звичайно, якби не поїздка за кордон чи на південь від Кордону .... сьогодні нам було б зібрати дуже мало цих монет.

Thanks for the advice and feedback. In any case, I will take your advice and try to tell you more about my work later when I finalize the materials.

[Cersderouu]

On 4/14/2021 at 12:37 AM, RWB said:

You might check out the book From Mine to Mint - it emphasizes minting technology and operations from about 1836-1935.

Thanks. I will look. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Cersderou, for some reason your quotation of an earlier post of mine is printed in some foreign language.  No idea how/why that happened.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/13/2021 at 6:05 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You know better than us, but I think a theme mentioned in the book is worth considering in your paper (if you haven't used it already).

Basically, most of the gold (and silver) coins found VERY LITTLE mass circulation in commerce and among ordinary Americans....gold coins....and especially the large 1 oz. Double Eagles (Liberty and Saint-Gaudens).  After the Civil War, Americans gradually came to trust paper currency.  Silver and Gold Certificates (backed by the metals) were preferred, but the Rise Of The Dollar was on its way.

Since your paper appears to involve the switch from precious metals to paper, I thought that might be of use.  Some of the special chapters in the book go into it in more depth.

Anyway, when I first got into collecting and researching Saints, I was shocked at how few of the millions of annual Saints minted were actually used in everyday commerce (usually hundreds, maybe 1-2 thousands, tops).  And of course, if not for going overseas or South of The Border....we'd have very few of these coins to collect today.

Cers, here is the post that somehow got screwed up. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/14/2020 at 10:15 AM, RWB said:

The Eagle book is taking longer than expected. Data about movement of Eagles is more difficult to locate than DE. It also has a higher uncertainty rate - some of which is caused by reference to both DE and E as "eagles" in some financial accounts and ExIm reports.  

Were Eagles used to settle international trading and gold accounts ? 

How low in denomination would they go in those bags going South of the Border or over to Europe -- Half-Eagles ?  Smaller ?  I'm going to guess if they used anything other than Double Eagles it was Eagles -- smaller than that, not worth it to fill a bag.

[RWB]

DE were the most convenient non-bullion coin, followed by Eagles. Lower denominations were seldom exported. Each U.S. bag contained the same weight of gold, so that did not matter. But smaller denominations were subject to greater abrasive loss in bags (larger surface area), and increased "evaporation" during handling in counting rooms. Half Eagles and other small denominations were less reliably available in large quantities necessary for international trade. The intermittent coinage of Saint-Gaudens Eagles is an indicator of very limited international trade demand. Lastly, 20th century gold coinage was dominated by the need to convert bullion into coin to cover paper currency backing. $20s produced more dollars-per-strike than any other denomination.

[GoldFinger1969]

Fascinating, thanks Roger.  The book covers so much about gold and gold coin movement, especially during the 1920's, which was so interesting to read.

[RWB]

Throughout the gold coinage era, half eagles ($5.00 compared to $4.88 per sovereign) were the workhorse gold denomination in the US economy.

[GoldFinger1969]

22 minutes ago, RWB said:

Throughout the gold coinage era, half eagles ($5.00 compared to $4.88 per sovereign) were the workhorse gold denomination in the US economy.

You mean everyday commerce (buying stuff at the store, getting paid, businesses used it, etc.) ?  So the $5 bill and the $5 gold half-eagle both were in healthy competition I take it.

How about the quarter eagle ($2.50) -- not as much usage ?  Guess if you needed $2.50 it was easier to hold than 2 single bills and a 50 cent piece or 2 quarters. 

[RWB]

"Workhorse gold denomination." That does not mean everyone used it. Few people ever saw a gold coin - only silver and paper.

QE, $3, $1 were too small in size to be appealing - lots ended up in jewelry. Paper had covered these denominations since the Continental Currency days and that hasn't changed today.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 minutes ago, RWB said:

"Workhorse gold denomination." That does not mean everyone used it. Few people ever saw a gold coin - only silver and paper.  QE, $3, $1 were too small in size to be appealing - lots ended up in jewelry. Paper had covered these denominations since the Continental Currency days and that hasn't changed today.

I thought that the term "greenbacks" during the Civil War was used derisively.  It seems like in the span of a few years (maybe a decade) most of the American public got used to having trust/faith in the dollar/paper currency which I guess was NOT the same pre-Civil War.

[RWB]

Americans had used paper currency for decades before "greenbacks." The derisive term was because the new paper money did not have direct gold backing -- much like the worst of the old state bank notes. It was also national in scope and depreciated against gold. However, Hetty Green and a few other smart investors bought depreciated bonds and notes, then made huge profits as the economy stabilized. (A little like buying depressed stocks last year and selling them this year.)

Edited April 16, 2021 by RWB