Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[GoldFinger1969]

15 minutes ago, RWB said:

Americans had used paper currency for decades before "greenbacks." The derisive term was because the new paper money did not have direct gold backing -- much like the worst of the old state bank notes. It was also national in scope and depreciated against gold. However, Hetty Green and a few other smart investors bought depreciated bonds and notes, then made huge profits as the economy stabilized. (A little like buying depressed stocks last year and selling them this year.)

Fascinating...one of the tidbits I am sure you mentioned in the book but which I glossed over and/or never wrote down....so it was the lack of gold (or silver) that was the reason for the term greenbacks.

No wonder Gold and Silver Certificates were then highly used.....the convenience of paper, the backing of precious metals. 

Got it !  

 

 

[RWB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Fascinating...one of the tidbits I am sure you mentioned in the book but which I glossed over and/or never wrote down....so it was the lack of gold (or silver) that was the reason for the term greenbacks.

No wonder Gold and Silver Certificates were then highly used.....the convenience of paper, the backing of precious metals. 

Got it !  

 

 

No...the nickname was from the ink color on the reverse design.

[GoldFinger1969]

7 minutes ago, RWB said:

No...the nickname was from the ink color on the reverse design.

Mistyped....I meant the lack of gold/silver was the reason the greenbacks were not embraced by the public.

Thanks, Roger !  

Edited April 16, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, since you don't have the data at this time (pending recovery).....and since this is NOT for publication or research purposes but for my own curiosity (with an asterisk, of course ).....what percentage would you assign the MS60, 61, and 62 grades for your CIRCULATED - MS62 figure in your population census by grade ?

I'm looking for maybe 1 number (2 tops, if you think the rare Saints are different) to do the calculations.  Not going to come up with 53 different percentages since this is just a guestimate anyway.

How's 50% sound, with 50% also in AU58 and below ?  Too high ?  Too low ?

Barring that, I could use the percentage ratio in Bowers 2004 DE book, but it's more dated data than yours (plus I really don't want to do it for 53 coins).  Akers/Ambio doesn't have totals in their book so no go there.

Edited April 17, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Very rough --- Possibly 50% for so-called MS-60/61 and 20% for MS-62, plus another 10% for MS-63 -- all as applied to common date coins. Rare dates/mints would be much lower - they simply receive more attention. (I probably have more reliable data, but that awaits data recovery.)

Personally, I do not accept any "AU" grade except 58. To me, AU is a unitary grade -- a demarcation between Uncirculated and Circulated. Anything in an "AU-55, AU-53" or similar holder is actually EF; and, AU is defined as the slightest trace of abrasion and/or field disturbance by handling. "AU" is one of three fixed points on a continuum. Unc 70 defines the top, P-01 the bottom and AU is the discernible location where Unc ends and Circ begins. All three points are thus defined and everything else must be described in relation to them.

Edited April 17, 2021 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

15 minutes ago, RWB said:

Very rough --- Possibly 50% for so-called MS-60/61 and 20% for MS-62, plus another 10% for MS-63 -- all as applied to common date coins. Rare dates/mints would be much lower - they simply receive more attention. (I probably have more reliable data, but that awaits data recovery.)

Thank You....your book already has MS63-64, 65-66, and 67-68 separate numbers (BTW, I presume you included the sole MS69 Wells in the 67-68 grouping  ).

So you think 70% (50+20, the 10% MS63 is already segregated in your numbers into the MS63-64 bucket) of your UNC-MS62 coins are MS60-62, and only 20% (30% ??) are in the AU58 and Below bucket ?  Interesting....

15 minutes ago, RWB said:

Personally, I do not accept any "AU" grade except 58. To me, AU is a unitary grade -- a demarcation between Uncirculated and Circulated. Anything in an "AU-55, AU-53" or similar holder is actually EF; and, AU is defined as the slightest trace of abrasion and/or field disturbance by handling. "AU" is one of three fixed points on a continuum. Unc 70 defines the top, P-01 the bottom and AU is the discernible location where Unc ends and Circ begins. All three points are thus defined and everything else must be described in relation to them.

I am with you here.  But since I was just trying to filter out the Mint State 60-62 number from the entire CIRCULATED - MS62 figure, how the coins are slotted below MS60 doesn't matter that much.  They are all in the Non-MS bucket.

BTW, I mistyped above...your book uses CIRCULATED- MS62 in the pop number (not Uncirculated-MS62)....I corrected it above.

Edited April 17, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

The seemingly "odd" grade ranges are an attempt to align reality with perception. They also tend to follow sales/auction results - that is: buyers of low-end labeled coins will purchase items within those stated grade range. That was the relation when the book was written, but it might easily change as "grading nonstandards" continue to slide and the buying collector becomes increasingly ignorant.

[GoldFinger1969]

7 minutes ago, RWB said:

The seemingly "odd" grade ranges are an attempt to align reality with perception. They also tend to follow sales/auction results - that is: buyers of low-end labeled coins will purchase items within those stated grade range. That was the relation when the book was written, but it might easily change as "grading nonstandards" continue to slide and the buying collector becomes increasingly ignorant.

Check out the CoinWeek article from 2012 on the 1907 UHRs....the article admits that the PR69 UHR is probably a 67+..... when you send in a coin with a grade already there (regardless of PCGS or NGC), there's an implicit bias to use that as the starting point and grade higher.

The same coin submitted raw almost certainly gets a different grade. 

1907 UHRs Coin-By-Coin

Some funny stories and tidbits in that article, highly recommended even if someone reading this isn't into Saints or UHRs.

[GoldFinger1969]

14 minutes ago, RWB said:

The seemingly "odd" grade ranges are an attempt to align reality with perception. They also tend to follow sales/auction results - that is: buyers of low-end labeled coins will purchase items within those stated grade range. That was the relation when the book was written, but it might easily change as "grading nonstandards" continue to slide and the buying collector becomes increasingly ignorant.

Just to be clear....your CIRCULATED-MS62 category......70% in MS60-61-62 bucket....and 30% in AU58 and below ?

The MS63 10% coins you estimated is already included in the MS63-64 bucket.

Edited April 17, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

2 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Just to be clear....your CIRCULATED-MS62 category......70% in MS60-61-62 bucket....and 30% in AU58 and below ?

The MS63 10% coins you estimated is already included in the MS63-64 bucket.

Yeah -- the disadvantage of relying on memory instead of the original materials.....

[Henri Charriere]

[Hetty Green? The Witch of Wall Street?  The richest woman in America at the time who was refused service at a free charity clinic resulting in the amputation of her son's leg? That story always stuck with me...]

[GoldFinger1969]

17 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Hetty Green? The Witch of Wall Street?  The richest woman in America at the time who was refused service at a free charity clinic resulting in the amputation of her son's leg? That story always stuck with me...]

Yeah, and I think she ate cold porridge because she was too cheap to heat it up....I remember reading that in the 1970's !!

I guess her other son who didn't lose her leg was the coin collector, Colonel Green.  I wonder if Hetty collected -- probably not. 

[RWB]

4 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Hetty Green? The Witch of Wall Street?  The richest woman in America at the time who was refused service at a free charity clinic resulting in the amputation of her son's leg? That story always stuck with me...]

She was not refused service at a charity clinic. She had several physicians for her son but would not allow them to do what very little they could, to save his leg due to what she felt were excessive fees. Some of her later behaviors are attributed to her attempts to some how atone for that - although medical technology was barely above the axe, saw and scary mask stage anyway.

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, when you were doing the year-by-year and mintmark reviews and commentaries, was there ONE year or mintmark that stood out where you said "this is interesting, I didn't know this, it will stay with me in my head long after I write it" ?

For me, it might be the 1932 Saint.  It seems people were aware that the Saint DE's might not be struck much longer and that turned out to be correct.  The gentleman from Newark who bought 50 of the coins (1st time I believe he ever bought or at least in that quantity) also stood out.  Your list of all the direct purchases from the Philly Mint also was a great chapter addition.

The amount of information and the info on all the pattern designs for the MCMVII UHR and HR -- no doubt some of it came from RoAC -- also stood out in my mind.  Didn't know about all the different female Liberty designs ASG considered using.

Edited April 27, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

44 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Roger, when you were doing the year-by-year and mintmark reviews and commentaries, was there ONE year or mintmark that stood out where you said "this is interesting, I didn't know this, it will stay with me in my head long after I write it" ?

No, not really. None of it was something I could hope to ever own - even for a few weeks - so I concentrated on getting all the data I could and making sense of it.

[GoldFinger1969]

1921 Saint-Gaudens:  Fascinating chapter, and shows you the depth of Roger's research and how varied the interesting items he includes keep your attention. 

Big Picture was this was the 2nd SG DE produced after the interruption of WW I.  Less than 200 coins survive to this day, < 25 in MS63 or higher grade.  Not a well-struck coin with good luster compared to other coins.

CT State Library curator Goddard got two 1921's from Mint Curator Comparette -- and then apparently kept them for himself. 

David Akers notes (as I posted in an earlier page in this thread, I believe) that the 1921 has changed less in the seven decades (now century) than any other Saint in terms of scarcity.  Other coins have risen or fallen in rarity as hoards materialized or did not.  And the ranking for Mint State coins leads the 1921 to be at the top of the pack at MS64 or above -- even beating the 1927-D.

Specimens:  Very interesting that there are two 1921's which might have been struck on a different press.  One has a "Roman finish" the other has been called "specimen" by a TPG.  The SP64 sold for just under $1.5 MM in 2006 which was 2x the price of MS65 1921's, so someone is/was willing to pay up for this coin's (alleged) uniquiness.  The other coin was supposedly struck to honor a family member of the Ghiradelli chocolate family killed in WW II.   

As an aside, I wish it would have been possible to attend a lecture or read a book by Paul Wittlin on how he uncovered all the Saint-Gaudens and other gold coins in European banks.  What a fascinating job he had, helping to uncover so many of the valuable pre-1933 gold coins we see in coin displays at shows and for auction online.

[RWB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Specimens:  Very interesting that there are two 1921's which might have been struck on a different press.  One has a "Roman finish" the other has been called "specimen" by a TPG.

Also known as "Bologna finish" and "clashed old die" double eagles.

[Henri Charriere]

[Mssrs @RWB et @GoldFinger1969:  If there were any Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle you could own, irrespective of price or immediate availability, what date and grade would it be -- and why?]

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Mssrs @RWB et @GoldFinger1969:  If there were any Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle you could own, irrespective of price or immediate availability, what date and grade would it be -- and why?]

Great question, QA ......theoretically I'd probably go for a UHR which is technically a pattern.  Not only rare but beautiful.....all are proofs and most are PF67 or higher so the grade is top-notch....and if sold, I could easily buy lots of other Saints or other coins including a top-notch 1907 High Relief for maybe 1/10th the price of the UHR.

The 1933 Saint may be the most valuable, but it's no different than the other 1907-32 Saints, except for the date.

So put me down for a UHR...and if it has to be a "coin" then make it the MCMVII High Relief.  I believe the most expensive sold for just under $600,000; this past Sunday a PCGS Flat-Edge MS66 sold on GC for $74,500 ex-bp.

[RWB]

12 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Mssrs @RWB et @GoldFinger1969:  If there were any Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle you could own, irrespective of price or immediate availability, what date and grade would it be -- and why?]

I leave the imaginative stories for the kid's bedtime.

[GoldFinger1969]

It is somewhat disappointing that we don't have even 1 perfect MS70 or PF70 Saint today...highest is 69.

Probably had to grab it right off mint press to avoid any contact.  You'd think the UHRs might be blemish-free but probably touched by hands or placed in non-velvet pouch that slightly touched obverse or reverse.

Don't believe any Morgans or Peace ever got 70 grade.  Doubt any coin pre-1960 would get that score even from a generous grader.

[RWB]

Coins were made for commerce. Among the best preserved are the few in the Michelson collection (CT State Collection) that were picked off the press by Louis Comparette.

[Henri Charriere]

15 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Great question, QA ......theoretically I'd probably go for a UHR which is technically a pattern.  Not only rare but beautiful.....all are proofs and most are PF67 or higher so the grade is top-notch....and if sold, I could easily buy lots of other Saints or other coins including a top-notch 1907 High Relief for maybe 1/10th the price of the UHR.

The 1933 Saint may be the most valuable, but it's no different than the other 1907-32 Saints, except for the date.

So put me down for a UHR...and if it has to be a "coin" then make it the MCMVII High Relief.  I believe the most expensive sold for just under $600,000; this past Sunday a PCGS Flat-Edge MS66 sold on GC for $74,500 ex-bp.

Now I know who to watch for in Post Position One.

[Henri Charriere]

4 hours ago, RWB said:

I leave the imaginative stories for the kid's bedtime.

I like your, "We will neither confirm nor deny or even discuss our client's preferences" reply.

[RWB]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I like your, "We will neither confirm nor deny or even discuss our client's preferences" reply.

Should a cigar smoking duck flop down to me with a great wad of cash, I would then decide what to do - and it might not be the use some would anticipate.

[GoldFinger1969]

QA, this is nowhere near the most expensive, rarest, or most famous Saint.  But unless this is a light reflection enhancing the luster, this is the most beautiful shot of a Saint-Gaudens gold coin (maybe ANY gold coin) I have ever seen.  Right up there with the UHR's and their nearly-pure gold surface after annealing.

Meet the Norweb 1908-S, graded MS67 CAC and last sold in 2012 for $161,000.  The 1908-S has the 2nd lowest mintage (22,000) after the MCMVII High Relief.  David Akers owned it for a long time but finally relented and sold it to Steve Duckor for his registry set.  

David Akers excerpts:  "It is a one-of-a-kind Saint-Gaudens double eagle with luster and color that is simply extraordinary and fields and devices close to perfection. Personally, I think this is distinctly under graded in a 67 holder and once I bought it I told everyone that it was the one Saint I owned that I planned to keep forever....I have to admit, though, despite my saying many times over the years that I never have 'seller's remorse' after I decide to sell one of my own personal coins, that this coin is definitely the one exception to that rule." 

Edited April 29, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Does anybody know why a coin like the Norweb 1908-S -- assuming it is not the angle of lighting -- glistens so gold-like compared to other 1908-S coins which look just pale orange ? 

It just can't be fresh or polished or new dies.  The book says that luster is called by thousands of microscopic ridges, too small for the naked eye, that reflect the light and create the glistening effect.  I wonder how many 1908-S's came close to this Norweb specimen. 

[zadok]

22 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

It is somewhat disappointing that we don't have even 1 perfect MS70 or PF70 Saint today...highest is 69.

Probably had to grab it right off mint press to avoid any contact.  You'd think the UHRs might be blemish-free but probably touched by hands or placed in non-velvet pouch that slightly touched obverse or reverse.

Don't believe any Morgans or Peace ever got 70 grade.  Doubt any coin pre-1960 would get that score even from a generous grader.

ur beliefs r well grounded....as far as i recall when i last did any research on this topic....there were only (9) morgan dollars graded ms69 n (0) graded ms70 as for the peace dollars (0) in both grades....not aware of any recently reaching either grade....

[Henri Charriere]

11 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

QA, this is nowhere near the most expensive, rarest, or most famous Saint.  But unless this is a light reflection enhancing the luster, this is the most beautiful shot of a Saint-Gaudens gold coin (maybe ANY gold coin) I have ever seen.  Right up there with the UHR's and their nearly-pure gold surface after annealing.

Meet the Norweb 1908-S, graded MS67 CAC and last sold in 2012 for $161,000.  The 1908-S has the 2nd lowest mintage (22,000) after the MCMVII High Relief.  David Akers owned it for a long time but finally relented and sold it to Steve Duckor for his registry set.  

David Akers excerpts:  "It is a one-of-a-kind Saint-Gaudens double eagle with luster and color that is simply extraordinary and fields and devices close to perfection. Personally, I think this is distinctly under graded in a 67 holder and once I bought it I told everyone that it was the one Saint I owned that I planned to keep forever....I have to admit, though, despite my saying many times over the years that I never have 'seller's remorse' after I decide to sell one of my own personal coins, that this coin is definitely the one exception to that rule." 

Never saw anything like it and probably never will.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Never saw anything like it and probably never will.

I'll check the various archives and websites and see what other 1908-S top-ranked coins in Roger's book look like.

That coin may well have been David Akers' favorite based purely on eye appeal alone, irrespective of cost or unique features (i.e, UHR or HR).

Edited April 29, 2021 by GoldFinger1969