Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[RWB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think it would be great if a living relative of Saint-Gaudens were to appear as a speaker at a coin convention.  Maybe a grandkid or great-grandkid.  I think his son (Homer ?) spoke a few times in the 1950's but don't quote me.

Not sure there are any except possibly Hettie Anderson's family or Augustus' brother? National Park Service might know....?

Edited May 29, 2021 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

BTW, QA, my post above comes straight from Roger's book so give him the credit.  I just organized it and wrote it in  a nice colorful style. 

I had always wondered why the availability drops right off after 1928.

Noted.  Your upbeat exchanges with the author is nothing less than illuminating and humorous.  Great job!

[RWB]

Thank you.

[GoldFinger1969]

When it comes to Saints......resistance is futile !! 

Edited May 29, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Saint Activity:  Seeing more people getting involved in bidding...higher bids...more bids.  A 1923-D MS-66+CAC is at $5,900 (13 bids) with a week to go over on GC.  

[GoldFinger1969]

Americans Holding Gold Coins in the 1930's, including DE's (continued from another thread):

   VKURT:  This idea that people used gold coins regularly in commerce is a myth.

I think books like Roger's disabuse that notion.  I do think many more people had a few coins (including DE's) salted away because of mistrust in banks.  It was much more than those that used DE's or collected them....but still a very small % of the U.S. population, agreed.

Roger's sources and numbers are detailed (and somewhat confusing because the data isn't definitive) but it appears that about $7 MM in gold coins was turned in by American citizens from 1934-41, then another $250K per year into the 1950's for a grand total just over $9 MM (another $12.5 MM came back into the country from overseas).

The government estimated just over $300 MM in gold coin in circulation in 1933 but $279 MM lost/in collections/exported with no records.  $25.6 MM came from banks by December 1933 and it was estimated that $18 MM came from American citizens.  That probably included tens of thousands -- maybe hundreds of thousands -- of DE's unless you think the skew was to even smaller denominations.  While Americans were allowed to hold $100 in coins, the fine print was lost on many and most probably thought they had to turn in everything or spend it quickly.

It's tough to get detailed numbers on American gold holdings by citizens in the 1930's, let alone the denominations.  We can only guestimate.  Back then, you couldn't survey people anonymously and NOBODY wanted to tell a government questioner or pollster or numismatist how much and what kind of gold coins they had hidden underneath a mattress or in their glass trophy case.

Edited June 2, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

10 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

The government estimated just over $300 MM in gold coin in circulation

The estimate was of "gold in circulation" not "gold coins in circulation." Treasury use was inclusive of gold notes, certificates and coin. This is something that I tried to untangle in the book - evidently not completely successful.

[GoldFinger1969]

12 minutes ago, RWB said:

The estimate was of "gold in circulation" not "gold coins in circulation." Treasury use was inclusive of gold notes, certificates and coin. This is something that I tried to untangle in the book - evidently not completely successful.

Gotcha...no it's clear....I just conflated all the different forms of gold. 

Are the rest of my numbers and interpretations from your book correct ?  If $18 MM or so in gold coin was held by the public....is it reasonable to assume that hundreds of thousands of DEs (a few million dollars of that total) were held by American citizens ? 

Or do you think that the denomination skew was to the smaller coins almost exclusively ?

I realize this is probably just a guess as no surveys or data really exists.

Edited June 2, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Probably OK....no one really knows except the door-to-door gold buyers, and smugglers.

[VKurtB]

3 hours ago, RWB said:

The estimate was of "gold in circulation" not "gold coins in circulation." Treasury use was inclusive of gold notes, certificates and coin. This is something that I tried to untangle in the book - evidently not completely successful.

My reading (not specifically numismatic, but economic history based) tells me that a tiny portion of that "gold" was in metallic form, and the easy majority was in notes and certificates. The average person never encountered gold coins OUTSIDE OF the three major gold rushes and a cultural bias toward them generally in the western territories. Remember how skewed the population was to east of the Appalachians at that time. St. Louis really was "out west". That "out west" cultural thing covered a whole bunch of square miles, but not many people. A rough approximation of population patterns was the size of House congressional delegations. New York had 33 House members in 1880. Pennsylvania had 27, Ohio 20, Illinois 19. By comparison, (think about these), Florida had 2, Texas 6, and California only 4. Yes, Pennsylvania had over twice the representation of Florida, Texas, and California combined, plus 3 to spare. And people wonder why New York and Pennsylvania are where the old coins are found?

Edited June 2, 2021 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 5/29/2021 at 3:45 PM, RWB said:

Thank you.

The Borg, but not Bjorn.

[GoldFinger1969]

52 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

My reading (not specifically numismatic, but economic history based) tells me that a tiny portion of that "gold" was in metallic form, and the easy majority was in notes and certificates. 

If you wanted the security of gold, I find it hard to believe you'd want a certificate entitling you to gold if you present the piece of paper. 

Gold certificates were better than regular bills but not as good as the actual metal or coin.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

The Borg, but not Bjorn.

I knew that guy was a cyber creature from the way he played McEnroe and Connors !! 

[VKurtB]

31 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you wanted the security of gold, I find it hard to believe you'd want a certificate entitling you to gold if you present the piece of paper. 

Gold certificates were better than regular bills but not as good as the actual metal or coin.

That’s where you’re missing the facts. Paper WAS preferred by most. Handling gold was a pain in the backside.

[GoldFinger1969]

7 hours ago, RWB said:

Treasury use was inclusive of gold notes, certificates and coin.

Gold certificates I have heard of and seen, what is/was a "gold note" ?

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

That’s where you’re missing the facts. Paper WAS preferred by most. Handling gold was a pain in the backside.

No, that I get, Kurt.  I'm saying that if someone feared a bank collapse and/or didn't trust the government, I would think they'd want the actual metal, not a piece of paper that says you can exchange it for gold.  There were lots of people in the pre-FDIC days who didn't trust banks.  I know they may have preferred to transact daily in paper....but if they had any savings squirreled away, I would think they'd want the actual metal (coins) and not a gold certificate.

Lots of distrust of the federal government and Eastern bankers by small towns, agrarian communities, etc.

Reminds me a bit of quasi-gold bugs who will buy paper gold like ETFs, futures, or mining stocks in liu of the actual metal.

[GoldFinger1969]

From DWLange on another thread:

The use of gold coins as a general circulating currency ended after 1861 in most of the nation. It continued in the West as late as 1917, until the Treasury's restrictions on its distribution forced even westerners to accept paper money. As other Americans had discovered decades earlier, paper is a lot easier to carry around than gold. After about 1920 gold coins could be obtained upon request, but individuals and most businesses wanted little to do with them, except as special gifts at births, graduations, Christmas/Hanukah, etc. By the late 1920s they became more difficult to obtain at face value, as they were already bringing over that for the export market.

[RAJ on COINS]

On 5/28/2021 at 1:33 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But you say you can't see the mintmarks even with  >100% magnification, Ross ?

I can see the mintmarks!  just can't always identify the "re-punched" ones from the images provided... some are easier to see than others, and magnification isn't the only factor.  Angle of lighting is key as is contrast.  Have been looking for a few for awhile now and am resigned to the fact that I will probably have to cherrypick them at shows where I can see them for myself in hand. 

[RAJ on COINS]

On 5/29/2021 at 12:36 PM, RWB said:

Not sure there are any except possibly Hettie Anderson's family or Augustus' brother? National Park Service might know....?

What about "Novi"?  the illegitimate son of Davida Clark and Gus?  Wonder if he had any family.

[RAJ on COINS]

On 6/2/2021 at 2:50 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you wanted the security of gold, I find it hard to believe you'd want a certificate entitling you to gold if you present the piece of paper. 

Gold certificates were better than regular bills but not as good as the actual metal or coin.

I think I slightly disagree.  Until Gold coins and Certificates were called in in 1933, I don't think in most people's minds there was much of a difference between the two from a practical standpoint.  I doubt there was ever a case where exchange of certificates for coins was contested or resisted by the government or banks (unless maybe a supply of coins wasn't immediately available).  The Gold standard meant the two were interchangeable, and the legends on the notes were meant to be taken literally.  There were other notes at the time, including U.S. Notes and even Federal Reserve Notes that also had gold "backing" but did not usually include text guaranteeing direct exchangeability for Gold Coin, and the backing was often less than 100%.  After 1933, all that changed.  American's were told their money was still backed by Gold, but all "exchange clauses" disappeared (as well as the entire series of "Gold Certificates").  Analogously, up until the mid 60's silver certificates could be exchanged (at the U.S. Treasury) for actual silver. Paper money became monopoly money in the 70's ..."Legal Tender for all debt's public and private"... the missing words they should have added were "... because we say so".

The crypto geeks have a point when critics say... "bitcoin isn't backed by anything" and they reply "neither is the U.S. Dollar"... 

I love when economists diss gold as money.  They run the world's economies.  If gold is "just a commodity" or "a barbarous relic" then why in 2021 do we still have an army base guarding our national "reserves" at Ft. Knox?

Just coin it all as '33 double eagles so every citizen can have one, empty the vaults, and stop talking about it in economic terms...

Somehow we all know that will never happen.  Why? Because money is what we all agree it is... and gold is also what most of us agree it is... (hint: Gold = money)

 

  

[RAJ on COINS]

"Redeemable in Gold..."

Wonder what "Lawful Money" is?!  (Hint: more paper!)

[RWB]

Modern backing for paper currency is economic activity. Hyperinflation of currency is an outward expression of a dysfunctional local or national economy...printing more paper is not a direct cause.

Before the US change from gold exchange standard, US Customs preferred - sometimes required - gold certificates over coin, and they refused bullion entirely. The certificate was "always" worth exactly the stated value; coins could be worn or off-standard, and bars required melting and assay to determine their gold content.

[VKurtB]

On 4/21/2020 at 10:05 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yup, and what we Americans have (thankfully) never experienced is that in Europe (due to wars) and South/Central America (due to incompetent governments and hyperinflation) their citizens have had their entire economic bases and their savings wiped out at various times over the last century or so.  We've never had that in the U.S.

And now, with this administration, we will too. 

[VKurtB]

On 6/3/2021 at 8:59 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

From DWLange on another thread:

The use of gold coins as a general circulating currency ended after 1861 in most of the nation. It continued in the West as late as 1917, until the Treasury's restrictions on its distribution forced even westerners to accept paper money. As other Americans had discovered decades earlier, paper is a lot easier to carry around than gold. After about 1920 gold coins could be obtained upon request, but individuals and most businesses wanted little to do with them, except as special gifts at births, graduations, Christmas/Hanukah, etc. By the late 1920s they became more difficult to obtain at face value, as they were already bringing over that for the export market.

Yes. This. Absolutely. 

[VKurtB]

Money supply changes have ZERO to do with metals prices or even price levels generally.

”Inflation is too much money chasing too few goods.” Bullsnot! WRONG!

Inflation is too much INCOME chasing too little production. The difference is HUGE! We are starting to get inflation right now due to the second thing above. People being paid to not work. 

[RAJ on COINS]

Roger,

Looking over Great collection's offering for this evening, something of interest showed up.  Another 1922 S "variety"(?) with odd field die damage...  I'm beginning to wonder what was going on with those dies.  Looks like lots of parallel vertical "scratch" lines across most of the obverse.  They are faint but noticeable.  They look like the might cross liberties outstretched arm (I'm not sure from the picture) which would be lower on the die than the fields, so maybe not die damage, but coin damage?  

If that's the case, maybe the MS64 grade was generous.  Just interesting, given the filed die and slashed 2 1922 S varieties with similar scraping.  Take a look...what do you think?

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1000700/1922-S-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-64

 

[RWB]

Unusual. Wonder what it looks like in person. Also, Heritage has a 22-S with almost compete circumferential die cracks/breaks and a strange looking mintmark. Sale and Lot 60205-91258. The coin is barely MS-62 in my opinion.

Edited June 6, 2021 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle:  In honor of the record sale ($18.9 MM) for the Farouk-Weitzman Saint, some interesting factoids from Roger's book about the 1933 Saint:

• Total mintage was 445,543 including 43 1933's that were mixed in with 1932's to balance a bag and were possibly available with the coiner for release prior to April 12th,1933 and FDR's edict.
• Ernest Kehr (1911-1986), who inquired about the sale of the 1933 Saint in the Flanagan sale at Stack Brothers, was a stamp and coin columnist for the New York World-Telegram in 1935, and then stamp news editor of the New York Herald Tribune from 1939 until the newspaper closed in 1966. He continued as stamp columnist for Newsday (Long Island, NY) until his death.  Over a forty year period, Kehr presented more than 2,000 radio and television programs promoting stamps. He wrote several popular books of which The Romance of Stamp Collecting (1947) was a philatelic bestseller, and was the hobby’s standard for new collectors for decades. 
• In other words, a stupid stamp collector caused all the problems between the Mint and 1933 Saint collectors over the years. 
• Mint miser Leland Howard, who made the determination that the coins were illegal, had a long career at the U.S. Mint and Treasury Department.  His obituary is here:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1991/06/26/obituaries/6bd28f98-cfc6-47b4-80c4-803df612ef51/
• RWB uncovered a note from Coiner Bartholomew that the 1933's were struck starting March 2nd, 1933 and not March 15th as commonly assumed.
• The additional gold weight added from the confiscated 1933's was never accounted for.  The "stolen" coins were not showing in a shortage of gold bullion so the government somehow reaped a profit once they confiscated the 1933's in the 1940's and 1950's.
• The Langbord Ten coins are graded MS66 (1), MS65 (2), MS64 (6), and Details No Grade (1).
• The 1933 Saint returned just under 5% a year from 2002 to 2021.  If you could have gotten one in 1933 for $20, it would have returned 17% a year from 1933-2021.
• Pics of Leland Howard (big) and Ernest Kehr (small insert), see below. 

   

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

@GoldFinger1969 I may be getting a little ahead of myself here, but would the following figures sit well with you regarding the recent sale...

Fair Market Value: $18.9 MM;  Buyer's fee (20%):  $3.78 MM; NGC Grading Fee (had it been applied):  up to $3,000 (maximum value)... ➕ additional related costs, as applicable?

[GoldFinger1969]

3 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

@GoldFinger1969 I may be getting a little ahead of myself here, but would the following figures sit well with you regarding the recent sale...

Fair Market Value: $18.9 MM;  Buyer's fee (20%):  $3.78 MM; NGC Grading Fee (had it been applied):  up to $3,000 (maximum value)... ➕ additional related costs, as applicable?

I just did a simple CAGR annual rate from $20 to $18.9 MM and $7.59 MM to $18.9 MM.

Total sales price was $18,872,250 with the BP so I'm comparing apples-to-apples by including buyers premiums for each price (except the 1933 price).