Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[zadok]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Why not? There was a policy change about this at NGC.

my understanding was/is for US coins only not foreign....???....unless a more recent change....

[VKurtB]

53 minutes ago, zadok said:

my understanding was/is for US coins only not foreign....???....unless a more recent change....

I knew ancients were out, but I never even had a PCGS foreign coin to think about. I am down to precious few PCGS coins. I am in the process of becoming NGC exclusive. 

[zadok]

4 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I knew ancients were out, but I never even had a PCGS foreign coin to think about. I am down to precious few PCGS coins. I am in the process of becoming NGC exclusive. 

just to clarify here....i am talking bout foreign coins in pcgs holders, they can not be added to an ngc registry set....US coins in pcgs holders can be added to ngc registry sets as a place holder but not assigned registry points....rooster man was concerned that if he had roosters in pcgs holders n wanted to add them to his ngc registry he would have to cross them over to ngc holders n risk the chance of them crossing at a lower grade, thereby forfeiting hundreds if not thousands of dollars in value...of course he could indicate that he wouldnt accept lower grades but would still incur considerable expense n gain nothing, plus all the shipping costs n the possibility that his prize roosters mite end up as road kill in todays shipping environment.....i too attempt to obtain most of my coins in ngc holders, i just have more confidence in their product....

[VKurtB]

17 minutes ago, zadok said:

just to clarify here....i am talking bout foreign coins in pcgs holders, they can not be added to an ngc registry set....US coins in pcgs holders can be added to ngc registry sets as a place holder but not assigned registry points....rooster man was concerned that if he had roosters in pcgs holders n wanted to add them to his ngc registry he would have to cross them over to ngc holders n risk the chance of them crossing at a lower grade, thereby forfeiting hundreds if not thousands of dollars in value...of course he could indicate that he wouldnt accept lower grades but would still incur considerable expense n gain nothing, plus all the shipping costs n the possibility that his prize roosters mite end up as road kill in todays shipping environment.....i too attempt to obtain most of my coins in ngc holders, i just have more confidence in their product....

Do you consider that a fear with a foundation? Is PCGS “looser” on foreign gold than NGC is? I wouldn’t know. I avoid gold altogether, pretty much on economic morality grounds. I have some, but not much at all. I “bailed out” of gold in August 2011.

[zadok]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Do you consider that a fear with a foundation? Is PCGS “looser” on foreign gold than NGC is? I wouldn’t know. I avoid gold altogether, pretty much on economic morality grounds. I have some, but not much at all. I “bailed out” of gold in August 2011.

wasnt specifically addressing gold coins....just foreign coins in general...my experience is that pcgs foreign almost never cross over at ngc at their certified grade, im sure a combination of grading standards n tpg bias , seems pcgs grades on the high side, i personally dont think their foreign graders as experienced as ngc as far as knowing the nuances of foreign minting procedures...plus ngc foreign registry sets far n away better than pcgs, pcgs foreign registry pretty pathetic, i wouldnt even list a set in their registries....as for US grading i believe pcgs has a slight edge, seems their high grade coins bring slight premium over ngc n their US registry sets very strong...sort of a matter of deciding why one buys their coins...just to have? guess one almost as good as other...if wanting to go registry route then id say ngc the better...crossing over? matter of personal experience n i try buy ngc if buying foreign, if US i just go with the coin n price....

[Henri Charriere]

4 hours ago, RWB said:

There was an active program to maintain circulating gold at full legal tender wright. So every month coins were shipped from the Sub-treasuries (later FRB) to the Philadelphia Mint for recoinage.

Just curious regarding terminology... were these called assay offices first, or sub-Treasuries?

[VKurtB]

29 minutes ago, zadok said:

wasnt specifically addressing gold coins....just foreign coins in general...my experience is that pcgs foreign almost never cross over at ngc at their certified grade, im sure a combination of grading standards n tpg bias , seems pcgs grades on the high side, i personally dont think their foreign graders as experienced as ngc as far as knowing the nuances of foreign minting procedures...plus ngc foreign registry sets far n away better than pcgs, pcgs foreign registry pretty pathetic, i wouldnt even list a set in their registries....as for US grading i believe pcgs has a slight edge, seems their high grade coins bring slight premium over ngc n their US registry sets very strong...sort of a matter of deciding why one buys their coins...just to have? guess one almost as good as other...if wanting to go registry route then id say ngc the better...crossing over? matter of personal experience n i try buy ngc if buying foreign, if US i just go with the coin n price....

So I should feel pretty safe with my PF70 foreign pieces in NGC holders, then.

[RWB]

31 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Just curious regarding terminology... were these called assay offices first, or sub-Treasuries?

Different critters. All the Assay Offices were part of the United States Mint and reported to the Director in Washington. The Sub-treasuries were created by the Independent Treasury Act that resulted from Andrew Jackson's foolish destruction of the Bank of the United States. The Federal Reserve System introduced a central bank control and distribution system independent of external political influence. It replaced private bank clearing houses and other ad hoc processes that had grown up under the Independent Treasury system. Many of the Sub-treasuries became Federal Reserve Banks, and the others became FRB Branches within each FRB region.

Edited July 13, 2021 by RWB

[VKurtB]

1 minute ago, RWB said:

Andrew Jackson's foolish destruction of the Bank of the United States.

Amen to that. The stupidity of early U.S. banking is one of the proximate causes for the Hard Times, of Hard Times Token fame.

[RWB]

There is a nice article in the Numismatist concerning Hamilton's avoidance of a financial panic in 1792 (?).

[zadok]

On 7/13/2021 at 7:16 PM, VKurtB said:

So I should feel pretty safe with my PF70 foreign pieces in NGC holders, then.

yes...

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/13/2021 at 4:46 PM, VKurtB said:

 I avoid gold altogether, pretty much on economic morality grounds.... I “bailed out” of gold in August 2011.

[My apologies to the OP but I couldn't let this pass.]

"Economic morality grounds."  Now if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black!  "Blood diamonds" I've heard of but "blood gold"?

"Bailed out" of gold 10 years ago?  How has gold performed since then? No further questions.  

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/13/2021 at 7:16 PM, VKurtB said:

So I should feel pretty safe with my PF70 foreign pieces in NGC holders, then.

What exactly are you afraid of?  So now it develops you own a "graded" PROOF, and it is encapsulated.  The Royal Mint's integrity has not only been questioned but dispensed with entirely. My thanks to the Great Zadok for eliciting, if true, these most tantalizing of revelations.

[VKurtB]

On 7/14/2021 at 6:16 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[My apologies to the OP but I couldn't let this pass.]

"Economic morality grounds."  Now if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black!  "Blood diamonds" I've heard of but "blood gold"?

"Bailed out" of gold 10 years ago?  How has gold performed since then? No further questions.  

Gold has only very recently gotten back up to where it was when I sold all but a few pieces. It has spent almost the entire time well UNDER what I got - $1900 an ounce, in 2011. 

Now, economic morality. My Masters is in economics. I consider “hard money” aka gold as money, as one of the most purely evil human developments in all of human history. Gold is responsible for more human suffering than any chemical on the Periodic Table. And yes, that includes the radioactive ones used in nuclear weapons. 

[VKurtB]

On 7/14/2021 at 6:26 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

What exactly are you afraid of?  So now it develops you own a "graded" PROOF, and it is encapsulated.  The Royal Mint's integrity has not only been questioned but dispensed with entirely. My thanks to the Great Zadok for eliciting, if true, these most tantalizing of revelations.

Yes, I do own quite a few U.K. proofs and piedforts, several of which are 1/0 PF70 top pops. None higher, none equal. (Until inevitably someone else equals mine.) All are NGC. I don’t LIKE PCGS. They annoy me with their attitudes. Now owned by private equity, I expect NGC to begin to annoy me too. I await a new firm with bated breath. None of the incumbents will suffice. 
 

So yes, I do see getting relatively scarce U.K. NIFC coins graded as defensible, but not U.S. Why? Too many U.S., too uninspired designs. The U. K. simply produces a more compelling product with LESS compelling packaging. Some packaging approaches obscenely bad. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB  Sometimes, not very often, a member conjures up thoughts so compelling, so thought-provoking, that it leaves one totally disarmed and unprepared for credible retort.  With the exception of the comment equating gold with pure evil, I will require the balance of the year dissecting what likely is the most outrageous comment ever recorded on any forum in social media history.

(Thank you, @GoldFinger1969 for accommodating my unfocused indulgences!)

[VKurtB]

On 7/14/2021 at 8:04 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@VKurtB  Sometimes, not very often, a member conjures up thoughts so compelling, so thought-provoking, that it leaves one totally disarmed and unprepared for credible retort.  With the exception of the comment equating gold with pure evil, I will require the balance of the year dissecting what likely is the most outrageous comment ever recorded on any forum in social media history.

(Thank you, @GoldFinger1969 for accommodating my unfocused indulgences!)

Oh I’m a provoker alright, thought and otherwise. I love challenging core beliefs. I enjoy stimulating thought, as well as rethinking. ALL of my ANA Money Talks fall into the “challenging established orthodoxies” category. Come to think of it, that was the style of the education in economics that I received. Very classical, very Socratic. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB Funny how the member (who fled with his like-minded cronies elsewhere) came right out and said, "I don't like you!" and interestingly, cited the very qualities he evidently deemed to be negative which has endeared you to the members here who appreciate a "give-it-to-me-straight" approach allowing the chips to fall where they may.

[VKurtB]

On 7/14/2021 at 9:52 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@VKurtB Funny how the member (who fled with his like-minded cronies elsewhere) came right out and said, "I don't like you!" and interestingly, cited the very qualities he evidently deemed to be negative which has endeared you to the members here who appreciate a "give-it-to-me-straight" approach allowing the chips to fall where they may.

He is an unrepentant worshipper of certain people in this field. I don’t genuflect to anyone. Not ANYONE. (Note: married to a Catholic lady, but I am not.) I’ve been that way since I was 20 in college. Age and experience have only proven to me that my approach was the correct one.

Edited July 15, 2021 by VKurtB

[Jason Abshier]

On 7/13/2021 at 4:46 PM, VKurtB said:

Do you consider that a fear with a foundation? Is PCGS “looser” on foreign gold than NGC is? I wouldn’t know. I avoid gold altogether, pretty much on economic morality grounds. I have some, but not much at all. I “bailed out” of gold in August 2011.

I do see a lot nice world coins in PCGS holders do I feel they are looser on grading compared to NGC ? no but I do notice they both have different grading standard . I see PCGS awards high grades for “luster bomb” coins , as where NGC may not award a coin for high luster but a stronger strike basically the same trend we see with US coins . Do I feel PCGS is worth more than NGC coin ? That’s matter of buyer which they like how much loyalty they prefer towards one of grading companies . But I do notice the PCGS world coins AGAIN ! trying to sell for higher premiums like they are more superior over NGC when we all know NGC has more deeper history and better knowledge and deeper data base grading world coins than PCGS ever will they joined the world coin market a little too late . I’m not trying bash PCGS I do see some nice interesting coins in their holders i would buy both either way even some older white ANACS world coins as well 

[zadok]

On 7/14/2021 at 7:26 PM, VKurtB said:

Gold has only very recently gotten back up to where it was when I sold all but a few pieces. It has spent almost the entire time well UNDER what I got - $1900 an ounce, in 2011. 

Now, economic morality. My Masters is in economics. I consider “hard money” aka gold as money, as one of the most purely evil human developments in all of human history. Gold is responsible for more human suffering than any chemical on the Periodic Table. And yes, that includes the radioactive ones used in nuclear weapons. 

yea but it feels so good to hold in ur hand.......a chunk of pitchblende not so much....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/14/2021 at 7:26 PM, VKurtB said:

Now, economic morality. My Masters is in economics. I consider “hard money” aka gold as money, as one of the most purely evil human developments in all of human history. Gold is responsible for more human suffering than any chemical on the Periodic Table. And yes, that includes the radioactive ones used in nuclear weapons. 

That's because gold was the medium of exchange and the source of wealth during mercantilistic and barter times.

If they could have, past societies would have fought over control of Milton Friedman's Monetary Rule if that was what wealth and banking and commerce were founded on.  

 

[RAJ on COINS]

On 7/13/2021 at 11:02 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

No, the Central American Hoard were coins found in El Savador in 1983, Ross....you are thinking of the SS Central America shipwreck.

Sorry... I jumped back in without doing my homework.  

While we're on the subject, I dislike the phrase "hoard" in coin contexts.  Every pile of coins that becomes "public" (after "discovery") becomes a hoard.

From Google: noun - a stock or store of money or valued objects, typically one that is secret or carefully guarded.

Since US Gold coins were not illegal (outside the country) They were probably not "secret" in the sense suggested ... just sitting in banks.

 

But how much more romantic to to say "the Central America "hoard" was "discovered" in a bank vault" vs. "A dealer went to Central America to negotiate and purchase an assortment of American Gold coins from a bank's inventory."

 

By the broad definition, every one of our collections is a "hoard"... and every one of us a "hoarder"... (and maybe we are). Instead of collectors, maybe we should call ourselves "ho"s for short?   Ok, Ok,... I go too far....

 

Moving on, and I am not sure why I think this, but I somehow don't believe the "Saddle Ridge Hoard" story rings true.  It's all just too cute that a couple walking their dog find a "can" of gold coins along the road.  Was the so-called location on their own property?

Something about that story makes me think it was made up to hide something funky about the actual source of those coins.... I hate marketing when it obscures the truth or attempts to "create history".

 

The impetus to do this is great. Think about how a good "story" makes a good coin great (and more expensive)!  What would a '33 Saint be without it's plotline and character's like "Izzy Switt"... it sound's like a Dicken's Novel!  Someday someone's gonna  make a musical out of that one.   If I had the talent I would give it a shot!

 

 

 

 

 

[RAJ on COINS]

On 7/15/2021 at 11:01 AM, zadok said:

I consider “hard money” aka gold as money, as one of the most purely evil human developments in all of human history. Gold is responsible for more human suffering than any chemical on the Periodic Table.

Don't blame the element.  It's like blaming cigarettes for lung cancer.  A cigarette is harmless unless some primate lights it on fire and tries to breathe through it.  If it wasn't gold, it would have been something else.

The function Gold played in our economy was to provide discipline and integrity to the regulators of the value of our currency.  Not perfect... nothing is.  We are now living in an age of no restraint ... to the point that "nothing" crypto currencies are actually taken seriously, precisely because they are no more ridiculous than the actual fiat money we all continue to use.  Ironically, the appeal of Cryptos over fiat we are told is the "limited supply" ( .... sound like any yellow metal you have ever heard of?)

Money (gold and silver for the first few thousand years) was a huge advance over barter, and any economist worth his degree has to acknowledge the great strides forward of civilization and greater efficiency of economic transactions that the "concept" of money provided.  Nothing better has yet been invented.  Did wars or conquest and greed follow?  So did penicillin.  Would we be better off still in caves trading dinosaur bones?  Guess it's a matter of opinion. 

Stop dissing Gold like it's some kind of boogie man.  Gold has an appeal to the mind and senses that is not a characteristic of the metal, it is characteristic of the humans who behold it.  If it's periodic place were taken by Styrofoam, some other material would have take taken it's place as the bane of human existence.  

[Henri Charriere]

@Ross J Firstly, to set the record straight, the remark regarding gold and evil, actually voiced by My Cousin Vinny, was inadvertently misattributed to the Great Zadok.  Now that we've gotten that out of the way, on to the matter at hand:  hoards.

As you may have occasion to recall, I billed my 🐓  Set Registry "The Herostratus Hoard."  Any connection to the reviled historic figure? None. It's just another example of introducing literary liberties with a term that promotes attention, interest and mystery. (It was Hollywood that dispensed with "vodu," an officially recognized religion in Haiti 🇭🇹 to the far more suspenseful "voodoo.")

If you prefer, I would be happy to re-name my complete short collection of solid MS-66 🐓 🐓 🐓 in your honor.  Then some of the invective I have been forced to endure, can be directed to you.  (One error I did not make was call my less than stellar collection, "The World's Finest."  That gentleman has had to re-name his set three times!)

Re Gold... it's extraction, along with other "elements," deforestation, the dwindling sources of fresh water world-wide, the disappearance of butterflies 🦋 and climate swings, tribal allegiances, etc., each in their own way pose a far greater threat because their collateral damage is involuntary, unsolicited -- and, to some extent, irreversible.

Incidentally, I subscribe to the investment philosophy espoused by Andrew Tobias which can be expressed in a Henny Youngman-like one-liner: "If you want to save money, don't spend any." 😉

[zadok]

On 7/16/2021 at 8:59 AM, Ross J said:

Don't blame the element.  It's like blaming cigarettes for lung cancer.  A cigarette is harmless unless some primate lights it on fire and tries to breathe through it.  If it wasn't gold, it would have been something else.

The function Gold played in our economy was to provide discipline and integrity to the regulators of the value of our currency.  Not perfect... nothing is.  We are now living in an age of no restraint ... to the point that "nothing" crypto currencies are actually taken seriously, precisely because they are no more ridiculous than the actual fiat money we all continue to use.  Ironically, the appeal of Cryptos over fiat we are told is the "limited supply" ( .... sound like any yellow metal you have ever heard of?)

Money (gold and silver for the first few thousand years) was a huge advance over barter, and any economist worth his degree has to acknowledge the great strides forward of civilization and greater efficiency of economic transactions that the "concept" of money provided.  Nothing better has yet been invented.  Did wars or conquest and greed follow?  So did penicillin.  Would we be better off still in caves trading dinosaur bones?  Guess it's a matter of opinion. 

Stop dissing Gold like it's some kind of boogie man.  Gold has an appeal to the mind and senses that is not a characteristic of the metal, it is characteristic of the humans who behold it.  If it's periodic place were taken by Styrofoam, some other material would have take taken it's place as the bane of human existence.  

not my quote.....belongs to vkurt....

[GoldFinger1969]

I think I had a back-and-forth with someone regarding "hoards" here or on CT.

To me....a hoard represented a large quantity or market-moving supply of NEW COINS that wasn't expected by the dealer community and/or the market.  It's an exogenous shock, as we say in economics.

The 1983 El Savador Hoard of 47,000 Double Eagles (most of them Saints) is at one extreme....at the other you could have the Spencer Marsh Hoard (he was a Newark bank executive) of 50 1932 Saints.

Some people consider the continued drips-and-drabs of Saints/Liberty's coming from Europe to be "hoards" but to me they are just residual small quantities -- a few here, maybe a dozen or two accumulated over time at 1 or 2 European banks -- that hit the market in the U.S. all at once.  Since they are usually from multiple individuals which are released usually as they die or their heris/estates get rid of them, I don't consider them true hoards myself, but to each his or her own.

[GoldFinger1969]

One of the more amazing hoards or colletions that I didn't know about is the actor Adolph Menjou's collection of MCMVII High Reliefs. 

He apparently had close to 250 of the coins.  He died in 1963 but apparently it took a while for his estate/coins to be sold and disbursed.  He had earlier sales of parts of his coin collection sold by some of the bigwig dealers of the day as early as 1950 from what I have seen.

He probably paid anywhere from $50 - $500 each for his coins, I guestimate.

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB and @Ross J  If it weren't for gold, we wouldn't have that classic line from "Treasure of the Sierra Madre"  (1948) starring Walter Huston and Humphrey Bogart:   "I don't have to show you any stinking badges."  Or how about:  "Water's precious.  Sometimes may be more precious than gold..."  With respect to the latter, have truer words ever been spoken?  More to the point, can you imagine @GoldFinger1969 rethinking his position, throwing his hands up, and saying:  "Okay, OK. I always knew gold was inherently evil. But that was the past. I'm into V-nickels and Large Cents now..."

Ain't gonna happen.  

[VKurtB]

On 7/16/2021 at 9:46 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@VKurtB and @Ross J  If it weren't for gold, we wouldn't have that classic line from "Treasure of the Sierra Madre"  (1948) starring Walter Huston and Humphrey Bogart:   "I don't have to show you any stinking badges."  Or how about:  "Water's precious.  Sometimes may be more precious than gold..."  With respect to the latter, have truer words ever been spoken?  More to the point, can you imagine @GoldFinger1969 rethinking his position, throwing his hands up, and saying:  "Okay, OK. I always knew gold was inherently evil. But that was the past. I'm into V-nickels and Large Cents now..."

Ain't gonna happen.  

I’m never going to change my mind that gold is inherently evil as money. We finally figured that out for all time in the 1970’s, the same era in which I was learning economic history. All that meshuggas in the late 19th and early 20th centuries ruined so many people’s lives. Gold has caused wars and economic calamity like nothing else. Only fiat money and floating exchange rates has literally saved the world from a Third World War and another Great Depression that would have made the one in the thirties look like a spring cotillion.