Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book
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2,283 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, RWB said:

Whitman has not asked me about updating Bowers' DE book, and they usually do all the price changes internally.

SOMEBODY should do an update, I know QDB is getting up there in years so maybe his time is not there for an updated edition.  I'm surprised they haven't done one, gotta believe they are talking about it internally. 

Anybody who bought the 1st Edition probably has interest in a new revised one, plus new/recent DE fans/collectors who want something that covers both Liberty and Saint DEs and is a bit less detailed than your Saints-only book....are all potential buyers.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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1913 Saint:  An interesting read, Roger and HA note the following:

"In the second edition of the Handbook of 20th Century United States Gold Coins 1907-1933, Jeff Ambio writes:

'Beginning in MS-65 ... the 1913 develops into one of the leading condition rarities in the entire Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle series. In fact, it is easier to locate a high-grade 1929, 1931, or 1932 than it is to find a similarly graded 1913. There has never even been a rumor of a 1913 Double Eagle that would grade MS-67 by today's standards.'

The typical poor production of 1913 double eagles will explain the lack of high-grade examples surviving today. It is entirely possible that few would have graded MS65 when they were struck. If a grading service could travel back in time to 1913 and set up a grading room in the Mint, there would likely still be only a small number of MS65 or finer coins certified."

Apparently, it wasn't bagwear and circulation wear that afflicts most of the surviving 1913 Saints....the comment about a time machine and a TPG being in position to grade the coins hot-off-the-presses indicates that MS65's and higher were lacking as they were struck....which strikes me as odd if not a bit hyperbolic.  Unless the Mint was using horrible dies for the 1913, coins right off the press should be plentiful in MS68 and MS67, if not higher.

 

 

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Presenting multiple opinions; agreement is not necessary. Mr. Ambio's observations are likely based on his experiences.

Historical information (anecdotal) indicates that most US coins would be 67 by today's inflated and undefined numbering confusion. Look at the Central America DE and other stacked gold, several hoards, and accumulations of fresh coins. The same conditions apply to every year with small variations in overall press setup and die preparation.

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16 minutes ago, RWB said:

Look at the Central America DE and other stacked gold, several hoards, and accumulations of fresh coins. The same conditions apply to every year with small variations in overall press setup and die preparation.

And even though those coins had less baggage-wear than their European counterparts, they still were dropped, bagged, and moved thousands of miles a few times.  I'll bet once in the bag or right before most were MS-67 or higher.

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[Over twelve hundred posts spread over forty+ pages.  This thread continues to chug along very briskly.

Congratulations to all for a wonderful, enjoyable and highly informative read!]  :)

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1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Over twelve hundred posts spread over forty+ pages.  This thread continues to chug along very briskly.

Congratulations to all for a wonderful, enjoyable and highly informative read!]  :)

(thumbsu  Thanks to folks like you, QA, Roger for writing the book and commenting very generously, and the folks at NGC for giving us this space !

It's amazing how much more I learn about Saints reading select sections again.  I think I was so focused on just getting through the 600-plus pages the first time I didn't really concentrate on absorbing key facts and tidbits about the coins. 

This thread and re-reading the book have done that now. (thumbsu

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11 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

absorbing key facts and tidbits

To better absorb key facts, place the book under your pillow at night. You will awake knowing more-or-less and with a stiff neck.

The "tidbits" are glued into the back cover. They come plain, glazed or with sprinkles.

:)

Edited by RWB
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22 hours ago, RWB said:

To better absorb key facts, place the book under your pillow at night. You will awake knowing more-or-less and with a stiff neck.  The "tidbits" are glued into the back cover. They come plain, glazed or with sprinkles.

It's funny but true:  if the last things you study are right before you go to sleep, you DO tend to remember them strongest the next day.  That's probably why people talked about putting books under their pillow.

I used to study memorization all the time right before I went to bed.  No miracle panacea but definitely helped rather than studying other stuff or watching TV for a while and then going to bed.

 

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I usually read something before sleeping that is completely different than what I worked on during the day. The last few evenings it's been about precursors to Population III stars.

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Well, that's a luxury, sleep, I don't have. The 🐓🐓🐓 keep me up all night long. No, not the ones I have.  The two I don't have and can't have because no one knows where they are, they aren't rare and, despite the fact over 12 million have been minted between them, not one has been NGC certified MS-67 for the year 1913 and not one has been PCGS certified MS-67 for the year 1914.

How can I possibly sleep not knowing whether they exist, where, who's got one or both, why they haven't bothered to certify them -- and why, over a hundred years later, no one can offer a responsible way to determine their unknown whereabouts and contact their [clueless] owners in a responsible, socially-acceptable manner?

Sleep?  I'm am 70.  Failure is not an adoption.  You understand because you have the same problem -- minus the over-the-top obsession.

Reward?  That works for people, makes, models, VINs and colors for cars but not for asking a clueless owner to gamble a lot of money to submit something they are content to describe as nice-looking (which an encompass any of 37 grades), old and possibly a wedding gift with great sentimental value, just to satisfy a collector's desire to fill a hole.

Sweet dreams, gentlemen.

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8 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Well, that's a luxury, sleep, I don't have. The 🐓🐓🐓 keep me up all night long. No, not the ones I have.  The two I don't have and can't have because no one knows where they are, they aren't rare and, despite the fact over 12 million have been minted between them, not one has been NGC certified MS-67 for the year 1913 and not one has been PCGS certified MS-67 for the year 1914.  How can I possibly sleep not knowing whether they exist, where, who's got one or both, why they haven't bothered to certify them -- and why, over a hundred years later, no one can offer a responsible way to determine their unknown whereabouts and contact their [clueless] owners in a responsible, socially-acceptable manner?  Sleep?  I'm am 70.  Failure is not an adoption.  You understand because you have the same problem -- minus the over-the-top obsession.  Reward?  That works for people, makes, models, VINs and colors for cars but not for asking a clueless owner to gamble a lot of money to submit something they are content to describe as nice-looking (which an encompass any of 37 grades), old and possibly a wedding gift with great sentimental value, just to satisfy a collector's desire to fill a hole.  Sweet dreams, gentlemen.

If you do get to sleep, I hope a nice French Gold Rooster awakens you at the crack of dawn. xD

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Begging the OP's indulgence, there was an old episode of Twilight Zone where Jack Klugman, the contender, battled Jackie Gleason for the boxing championship. The champion, warned the contender he would regret winning but fought round after round -- and won.  Gleason was relieved because he knew to keep the title he had no choice in choosing his contenders.  Kaufman learned that the hard way. The Top is only the beginning. My PCGS Set Registry is better than the one who's claimed the #1 for 10 consecutive years here at NGC but surpassing him is not worth risking coins that will not cross-grade successfully, not to mention unexpected upgrades, each of which will be unique with unheard of FMV's. We are talking thousands of dollars.

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9 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Twilight Zone where Jack Klugman, the contender, battled Jackie Gleason for the boxing championship.

The game was pool, not boxing - but they are very much alike.... :)

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58 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

And it was Jonathan Winters.  Jackie Gleason was in the real-life movie THE HUSTLER with Paul Newman.

OK. I thought it was Maude Frickard with the que....been 50 years since I saw that episode.

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On 6/24/2021 at 11:35 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Question For Those Over Age 50.....when the 1983 Central America Hoard was found, did it make big headlines ?  I can't find stuff about it on the web.

it didn't make headlines in the late 1980s like the sinking did in 1857... not that i'm speaking from experience... I'm not THAT old!

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On 6/23/2021 at 1:08 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Circulation Use Of Saint-Gaudens DE

The best evidence of Circulation Use of Saint Gaudens Double Eagles is, of course, circulated examples!  Most of those were probably melted in the 30's. The fact that circulated coins, thought fairly rare, survive today is evidence that some did.

I am always amazed to see a circulated High relief for sale or in an auction, which is not unusual.  They are usually referred to as "pocket pieces", I guess meaning that the wear they display came from a single covetous owner.  Being obviously "different" may have saved these in greater quantities from the melting pot than run of the mill worn Saints.

A circulation worn (20th Century) gold coin is something of a rarity in itself, but I'm not sure that rarity today says anything definitive about the degree to which these coins saw commerce pre-melt.  The melt reduced populations of everything,.  I have often been tempted to add a "worn saint" to my collection...but haven't yet done so.  They are alot more interesting than your average MS-60-62 bagmarked uggo!   

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1 hour ago, Ross J said:

it didn't make headlines in the late 1980s like the sinking did in 1857... not that i'm speaking from experience... I'm not THAT old!

No, the Central American Hoard were coins found in El Savador in 1983, Ross....you are thinking of the SS Central America shipwreck.

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[News of shipwrecks spreads as quickly as survivors are picked up and brought to shore. (With Marconi's wireless invention, ship to nearby ships-to-shore communications accelerated.  Hoards, archeological digs that yield treasure -- even finds that were found on private property are handled discreetly after the excavation is completed with minimal publicity, if any at all.  A fair analogy would be comparing a site to a crime scene.  The story about the gold being held at a bank vault at the Trade Center site was not publicized until it was removed, and then in considerable detail down to the fact that not a single troy ounce was damaged or unaccounted for.

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On 7/11/2021 at 10:09 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Begging the OP's indulgence, there was an old episode of Twilight Zone where Jack Klugman, the contender, battled Jackie Gleason for the boxing championship. The champion, warned the contender he would regret winning but fought round after round -- and won.  Gleason was relieved because he knew to keep the title he had no choice in choosing his contenders.  Kaufman learned that the hard way. The Top is only the beginning. My PCGS Set Registry is better than the one who's claimed the #1 for 10 consecutive years here at NGC but surpassing him is not worth risking coins that will not cross-grade successfully, not to mention unexpected upgrades, each of which will be unique with unheard of FMV's. We are talking thousands of dollars.

Why have them crossed? Put them in an NGC registry in their PCGS holders.

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2 hours ago, Ross J said:

The best evidence of Circulation Use of Saint Gaudens Double Eagles is, of course, circulated examples!  Most of those were probably melted in the 30's. The fact that circulated coins, thought fairly rare, survive today is evidence that some did.

Many immigrants voluntarily turned in their gold coins as an act of patriotism -- and also out of fear.  My grandparents and great-grandparents gave back numerous coins. 

Believe it or not, I have reason to believe my grandfather or his family may have had a 1927-D Saint or similar valuable coin as he was told it would have been worth about $1,000 in the early-1950's when he bought a home for his family.

My grandfather was in the Merchant Marine and was on a ship with many people from the West and it's possible that he had colleagues from the area that had a 1927-D.   Not sure how he came into possesion of the coin or what specific gold coin it was (he died before I acquired knowledge of Saints and gold coins in general).

I'm not sure if my grandfather knew about the coin at the time but by the 1960's he knew it was worth 25-50X the amount they got for it in 1933 or 1934.

2 hours ago, Ross J said:

I am always amazed to see a circulated High relief for sale or in an auction, which is not unusual.  They are usually referred to as "pocket pieces", I guess meaning that the wear they display came from a single covetous owner.  Being obviously "different" may have saved these in greater quantities from the melting pot than run of the mill worn Saints.  A circulation worn (20th Century) gold coin is something of a rarity in itself, but I'm not sure that rarity today says anything definitive about the degree to which these coins saw commerce pre-melt.  The melt reduced populations of everything,.  I have often been tempted to add a "worn saint" to my collection...but haven't yet done so.  They are alot more interesting than your average MS-60-62 bagmarked uggo!   

If I had the $$$, having a details or circulated High Relief to actually physically hold wouldn't be something I'd be against.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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4 hours ago, Ross J said:

A circulation worn (20th Century) gold coin is something of a rarity in itself, but I'm not sure that rarity today says anything definitive about the degree to which these coins saw commerce pre-melt.  The melt reduced populations of everything,.  I have often been tempted to add a "worn saint" to my collection...but haven't yet done so.  They are alot more interesting than your average MS-60-62 bagmarked uggo! 

There was an active program to maintain circulating gold at full legal tender wright. So every month coins were shipped from the Sub-treasuries (later FRB) to the Philadelphia Mint for recoinage.

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1 hour ago, zadok said:

no can do....

Why not? There was a policy change about this at NGC.

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