Conder Collectors - Post Your Images 3 3

[wdrob]

It appears to be a Conder token catalogued in Dalton and Hammer as Middlesex #1159, so it is a British and not a colonial coin (although they might have traveled). It was issued for general circulation and the engraver was most likely Thomas Wyon of Birmingham.

 

Issac Newton appears on several of these tokens, and yes, various versions exist. This one is listed as "common" but that just means that more than 200 are thought to exist.

 

Hope it helps.

 

 

Yes it does. At least I feel more confident that it is not fake since other versions were made. I should get that other one in a few days and it has a basket of fruit or something like that on the reverse as well as the portrait and name is slightly different.

 

 

[Hard Times]

This was my first Conder token back in the day:

 

Best, HT

 

[Conder101]

I sent Conder101 a picture of one the other day and asked I could get some historical lessons from it but I have yet to hear a word.

Did you send it as a direct email or as a PM? I don't think I have looked at the PM's here for over a year.

 

I don't have any real information on this piece. Most of the Issac Newtons, both half penny and farthings were anonymous issues intended for general circulation that could not be traced back to an issuer for redemption, Most of them are crudely made but 1159 and 1160 are both of much better workmanship that they were probably issued by a merchant and the others were contemporary counterfeits. 1159 and 1160 are also much more common than the other Issac Newton farthings as well which also points to them being a legitimate issue. Unfortunately there is no information about the issuer or the engraver/manufacturer. the dies were never muled with any others so no clues to a manufacturer can be found by that method either.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Conder101

[Yarm]

This "Medaille" appeared in the "Great Britain, Victoria 1837-1901" section of a European dealer's site.

The reverse design is characterstic of many medals by Wiener, Davis, etc. of that era,

but I think of it as the Conder token Warwickshire 38a, c1790s.

 

 

38mm, 27.3 gms, coin alignment

Edited October 23, 2013 by yarm

[Conder101]

One of my favorites. Mintage of 200 and absolutely stunning in hand. The detail in the chapel interior is incredible. (The photo here doesn't do it justice. You flip one over from the outdoor scene to the interior you would swear it drops an inch or more into the piece.) Whenever one shows up I try and buy it. Haven't had a lot of luck. I own two (1% of the original mintage) and I've lost out on three more. The prices have been rising rapidly on them as well.

[johnny9434]

warwickshire, one of my favorites as well. nice item

[Yarm]

According to D&H, this shilling token was issued in copper by Spence for collectors. (Essex 1 also exists in silver.) Odd date on this one!

 

[HiHoAudio]

Beautiful Spence token in fantastic condition!

 

 

[CyberspaceVoid]

Beautiful token, Yarm!

 

I hadn't seen this particular Spence shilling before, only the halfpenny with the similar running stag design. I had to look up Epping Forest on Wikipedia and found it is "an area of ancient woodland in south-east England, straddling the border between north-east Greater London and Essex. It is a former royal forest..."

 

Considering one of Spence's pet rants was to abolish the kingdom and redistribute the royal lands amongst the people I am surprised he depicted it on one of his tokens in such a delightful manner .... perhaps it was to encourage poaching? Spence was such a rebel I wouldn't put it past him!

 

I was also a bit taken back that his typical engraver's name "James" wasn't on this particular token. Any insight?

 

 

[joes2001]

Hi. What's a Conder? I have no idea what this post is about. thanks

[brg5658]

Hi. What's a Conder? I have no idea what this post is about. thanks

 

Google is a wonderful thing...

 

You can start with this link.

 

[Hard Times]

Here is a token from the Kempson building series.

 

[coinsarefun]

I made another wallpaper.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yarm]

Off to NGC with a few Spence tokens including this one. It has a plain edge so does it come back Midd 690b or 690Bis (from the D&H Addenda)?

 

[coinsarefun]

holy cow, that reverse is hammered pretty well.

nice one, I would love to se the others your going to submit.

 

 

 

[Conder101]

Well strictly speaking it should be 690bis but personally I would consider 690b and 690bis to be the same. The only difference is that on 690bis the rev die has not suffered a die clash and on 690b it has. That rev was used with several different obv dies. Somewhere along the way it suffered a severe clash with one of them. At one time I had worked out which die it had clashed with but I don't remember which at this time.

[CyberspaceVoid]

Yarm,

 

Great looking token! I have begun a small set of Spence tokens over the last few months myself .... one is in my registry while the others are not yet slabbed. Spence was quite a interesting character although he might have been labeled as a socialist today. Still, his tokens are a doable set, and his typical engraver, James, created some of the more attractive tokens in the Conder series. Did he mint his own tokens or do you have any knowledge of a manufacturer?

[Yarm]

Cyber-My understanding (from R.C.Bell's works) is that Spence produced his own tokens engraved by Charles James for several years before he went bankrupt. His coins and dies were sold to Peter Skidmore who used them to produce mules for sale often with dies engraved by Jacobs. Some unused Spence flans went to James.

 

A substantial portion of R.C.Bell's Political and Commemorative Pieces Simulating Tradesmen's Tokens, 1770-1802 describes Spence's political dies and the story behind them individually. Additional Spence tokens are described in other volumes by Bell (Tradesmen's Tokens and Specious Tokens.)

 

Conder101-I agree with your assessment (and submitted it as 690b). Bis is not used for dies with cracks or other post engraving damage, so why would it apply to a die with clashing?

 

[Conder101]

I believe D&H thought the die deliberately had the date defaced. Probably because typically when you see the "defaced" die the clashing does not match the obv that it is paired with. So they didn't realized it was just a clashed die. Then later when someone found a 690b that was struck before the die had clashed they thought they had something new. In my opinion the 690bis listing is an error and should be delisted. (It isn't the only error in the 1990 "listing of new varieties discovered since the original book was published".) The 690bis and 690b is actually just an interupted marriage.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Conder101

[Yarm]

That shepherd got a lot of use! Here's Midd 853, Midd 690b, Hert 3 and Worc 8b. Got one?

 

[coinsarefun]

Ooooo, I would love to see a larger image of the last one, looks very pretty

with that toning

 

 

 

[Yarm]

Ex Cosmicdebris

[coinsarefun]

Beautiful!!!!! Thanks for showing it to me

 

 

 

[Yarm]

Happy Holidays!

 

For those here who might be new to Conder tokens and Dalton & Hamer, here's a reprint of a portion of a Conder Token Collectors Club article about errors in D&H.

Another good source of rarity information besides D&H is the census Dr. Sriro has compiled over the years of appearances of tokens by D&H number.

 

 

Peace Plenty & Liberty

 

[Hard Times]

Thanks for posting this Yarm, and nice token!

 

Best, HT

[brg5658]

Very happy with this new token. Intense colors, prooflike glassy surfaces, cool reverse inset lettering surrounding Standing Justice. Just way too many attractive things to pass up.

 

[CyberspaceVoid]

Very happy with this new token. Intense colors, prooflike glassy surfaces, cool reverse inset lettering surrounding Standing Justice. Just way too many attractive things to pass up.

 

Interesting to see it has the large rim of the regal penny made in the same year. Do you know if they came out before or after?

[brg5658]

Very happy with this new token. Intense colors, prooflike glassy surfaces, cool reverse inset lettering surrounding Standing Justice. Just way too many attractive things to pass up.

 

Interesting to see it has the large rim of the regal penny made in the same year. Do you know if they came out before or after?

 

I'm not sure of the timing of these as compared to the cartwheel issues. But, these penny-size medalets are also not a SOHO/Boulton product. They were struck by Kempson in Birmingham (someone will correct me if I'm wrong there).

 

Good question, but I don't know the answer...if I do recall from my reading the inset surrounding letters were supposed to be an anti-counterfeiting measure on the cartwheel coins...

[Conder101]

I don't know if the Kempson token preceded the 1797 pennies and two pence or not, but the innovation of the broad rim with incuse lettering was definitely Boulton's and he used it before the 1797 coinage. As an example look at Lancashire 56 and 57 struck for Daniel Eccleston in 1794 with the same technique. I believe Boulton used it for a few other tokens as well. I'm sure Kempson saw some of these and copied the rims.

[brg5658]

I don't know if the Kempson token preceded the 1797 pennies and two pence or not, but the innovation of the broad rim with incuse lettering was definitely Boulton's and he used it before the 1797 coinage. As an example look at Lancashire 56 and 57 struck for Daniel Eccleston in 1794 with the same technique. I believe Boulton used it for a few other tokens as well. I'm sure Kempson saw some of these and copied the rims.

 

Thanks Conder101 for replying. I did remember seeing earlier examples of the method, but short of pulling out my D&H and thumbing through, I figured you or someone else would come along and know the answer.