GoldFinger1969

Speculation/Pondering On 1907 High Relief Quantity: I know there was "great excitment" about the pending 1907 High Relief when it first came out. But....you compare supply and demand and something stands out. You add up the government dignitaries (a few dozen to maybe 200 ?) who want/get the coin....add in a very small number of coin dealers and jewelers (100 or so, tops ?)....the general public including usual collectors and 1st-timers (1,000 ? 2,000 ?).....and it doesn't come anywhere close to the 12,367 High Reliefs that were minted. We know that tellers and others grabbed them rather than circulate. Not sure if they stayed in sub-Treasurys or whererer they went after coming off the mint presses. Now...today we have about 1/2 of them certified/graded. The other half, we don't know about. Is it possible that with such excess supply of 1907 Saint HR's (if my numbers above are in the ballpark)..and with the price premium fading over time..... that many were simply used in circulation....got worn down...looked indistinguishable to the naked eye from a regular relief Saint-Gaudens so not "picked out" ....and then got melted in the 1930's ? Maybe because Double Eagles didn't circulate much they got bagged in an "assorted" bag sent overseas or south of the boarder ? Lots of 1907 Saint High Reliefs survive today in Mint State because lots of people knew they were special. But thousands seem to be unaccounted for...I myself see VERY FEW 1907 HR's graded less than AU-50 (which is were circulated coins would be) up for sale, and Iook very closely at HA, GC, and Ebay (starting to look more at SB, too). Gonna re-read the chapter on 1907 HR's in Roger's book and see if I forgot some pertinent information. Also got what appears to be some original research from a coin dealer (not copy-and-paste stuff from other sources) on 1907 HR's and will scan and post it here or in the thread for Roger's Saints book.

You mean subjectively more ATTRACTIVE, right ?

I don't understand the references to "bodybags" ??

Those were some of my favorite sections, Roger....your quotations of Akers, Duckor, Kosoff, etc. Especially recollections from the 1940's and 1950's. I agree with your other sentiments. The TPGs had just started operations when the 1st Edition came out but the 2nd Edition (2008) had almost 20 years of data and decent internet resources available. A 3rd Edition after 12 years would be something I'd buy in a heartbeat if they updated the data (even though yours is pretty much up-to-date) with new commentary and thoughts on Saints-only collecting. I'd even buy a slimmed-down version that excluded Indian Heads and was just Saints. Guess I'll just have to wait.....

Interesting....if NGC or the industry trade group has any numbers on coin and currency ONLY submissions or indications of collector interest, that would be of interest. Obviously, this year and last year are useless for coin show attendance but down the line NGC's observations on those as well would be of interest.

Well, you know I bought your Saints magnus opus and I will certainly buy another one down the line. I'm not a Kindle or smartphone book reader, but if it's there as well, I may get it there, too. That way, it's always with me at coin shows. Thinking of getting the Morse Saints book (which is in hardcover) if I am sure the content is a bit different and/or there are more/different photos than the ones in your book. I know page-wise it's 1/2 the size.

What would you guestimate a popular series like the RED BOOKS for Morgans, DE's, Peace Dollars runs to ? I would say on the larger size, probably closer to your 5,000 limit.

Yup, seems that the way to go....thanks JT.

Gotcha....so net-net....there is NOT more/new information in the 1st Edition...it's just 99.9% the same as the 2nd Edition, just written/ordered differently ?

They don't make tons and tons of some of these coin books. Always good to buy them and put them away even if you aren't sure if you can read it at that time. I have given thought to buying a backup copy of Roger's SAINTS book but it came out recently so I assume I have time before it disappears. But from what Roger intimated, they don't print hundreds of thousands or even tens of thousands of these books, maybe sometimes just more like thousands.

Time loop !! Time paradox !! Gotta be careful when using that Time Stone.....

Thanks, JT !! Here's one of the reviews from Amazon on the 2nd Edition: "This is just a rehash of Akers' original withOUT all the personal wisdom and insight that Akers shared with the reader, which is what made his books the best coin guides around. There's very little in this book that isn't readily available on the internet. Look for the original...it's just a better book." I think I misread it.....I thought that the "personal wisdom and insight" comment referred to this book but apparently, if you read the comment above, the person is referencing OTHER books that Akers has written. Otherwise, he says that this is just a rehash which implies it's basically a carbon-copy of the 1st Edition without stuff taken out. I guess the only/main difference is the hardcover.

I'm going to re-read (and finish !) FMTM. I think I went in with such limited knowledge the last time that I found the book very difficult to understand. Learning about the minting process in such minutae does help collectors understand what causes all the differenct die and other variations that we see on all our coins. That was MY interest in getting FMTM, not necessarily learning all the details about the employees, equipment, etc. Roger's attention to detail and his excellent writing style in ALL his books is duly noted and appreciated !

It shouldn't, but that could be why you nevere see a "+ or "*" designation at MS-61 or MS-62 levels. But you do see them at MS-65, 66, and 67 grades.

I can't really make it out, but I would venture to guess that the distribution was skewed a bit to the LEFT with a lower Bell Curve distribution biased below MS65 or MS64. Since then, especially since 2004 or so, standards apparently "loosened" and more MS65's, MS66's, and maybe a few questionable MS67's have been recorded.

All coins, not just proofs it seems, from the auction footnotes in the DE Red Book and also in your Saints book. I can't prove it....but I'll bet that if the price of those 1933 Saints in the early-1940's was closer to $35 instead of $350......the Feds don't care about their release. Instead, you had a bunch of anti-FDR, anti-gold confiscation bootleggers making 2x or 3x or 5x or 10x on coins that never had an "official" release. No wonder the Feds were a bit peeved. Yup, and the demographics of the Baby Boom and the post-WW II economic environment were big tailwinds to all coin prices.

I'm not..... An 1859 Proof Liberty DE in 2004 (from the Red Book) cost $22,500 in MS-60 and $250,000 in MS-65. I'm sure the prices are higher, wouldn't surprise me if the prices had doubled since then.

Modern coins and recent coins didn't appreciate. The auctions for Morgan Silver Dollars in the late-1800's and early-1900's were for $1.05 or $1.20 at most for coins with a face value and silver content of $1.00. The 1907 High Relief -- something of a frenzy back then like those San Francisco Enhanced ASEs of 2019 or the privy mark Gold/Silver 75th WW II coins -- sold for $25 and maybe $30 right out of the gate then fell back below $25 a year or two later. A decade or so later they were $21 or $22, tops.

That is one crappy-made coin, if legit.

Thanks, much appreciated. I know the 1st Edition is fewer pages but it might have bigger pages. Just go to 1 or 2 sections on the Saints (I'm really not into the Indian Head Gold Coins) and see how they compare for maybe the 1907 High Relief and/or the 1924 or another year. If they are essentially the same except for updated information or if the 1st Edition had more of Akers comments (which is what 1 or 2 people alluded to). Thanks, JT !

I hope this doesn't mean we have to end this thread now. When ? Now. When is now ? We just missed it.... When ? Now !!!

Deep or Ultra Cameo, Hog ?

Modern high relief coins would be concave....and have the devices above the field. Not a flat field with a device above it. It'd be a circulation disaster with friction and wear.

The Satin vs. Sandblast (Matte) Saint-Gaudens Proof back-and-forth was very interesting. When you are used to Proof coins being shiny and mirror-like, anything else being called a "proof" would have been confusing.

Does anybody have this book and possibly the 2nd Edition, too ? I've located a used copy of the 1st Edition but only wanted to buy it if there was material information that got dropped from the 2nd Edition softcover (which I have). It's not inexpensive. I've gotten conflicting information so far on whether the 1st Edition contains material information not included in the 2nd.