GoldFinger1969

I know HA gave out copies of either Roger's book or the earlier Morse Saints book to certain buyers at past auctions. They may have sent it to their Platinum client list but they didn't advertise that if they did. The book retails for $100 so I am sure they don't want to mass-mail it to a good chunk of their mailing list and/or buyers. God, I sure hope more than 250 were sold. You sure have many more than that who have outbid me on coins over the years !

If YOU like the coin, and the price was reasonable (neither a great bargain nor a rip-off).....then you got a good deal. Enjoy the coin and don't worry about what you paid or what it is worth. Congratulations ! Are you talking about the price of gold ? Fundamental analysis of gold can take YEARS to kick-in (supply and demand here take that long to kick-in). Technical analysis can be right -- or it can be wrong. Unless you see a big move in the gold price and you want to FADE it (go the other way) because you think it is overdone....or if you think it's the start of a CONTINUED move in that direction (i.e., 1976-80, 2000-08, 2009-11, etc.) best to not try and predict the price of gold and just buy what you like at reasonable prices. If you are usually wrong, you shouldn't be speculating with options, IMO. I see nothing you did to warrant any time-out or suspension. Not sure what you are talking about. Did you edit the post above with that inquiry because you couldn't post again ? Your questions and posts seem fine to me. We need more newcomers like you and Eagle to jump-start this place.

That's $250 or about 14%. Throw out your calculator and get a new one. Also, that price was a spike up and it didn't last long. Had we held $2,000-$2,050 for a few months lots of coins would have been marked up even more for a longer period of time. Whenever you get a rapid price rise you can see irrational pricing moves. Some dealers are slow to raise prices, because they may have a relatively low cost-basis. Others try and take advantage of the price rise and reap a windfall. If a dealer needs to re-buy inventory at the new, higher price...that also impacts their sell prices. I can assure you -- and some of our dealer friends can chime in with more specifics -- that had you seen that 1-month rise of $250 take place over MONTHS with a $30-$40 move per month, the price moves would have been LOWER and more gradual. Some dealers and sellers who priced stuff when gold crossed $2,000 (the 2nd time in 2 years) may have thought we were definitely on our way to $2,200 or even $2,500 and priced accordingly. Eagle, you and I are generally in agreement, just off a bit on timing and magnitude. I agree with you on prices being more rationale of late.....if you check out my charts comparing Saint Double Eagles vs. Gold Bullion, the price of the coins always takes time to have the premium and/or price boost come out of the sellers/dealers asking price.

You'll see many differences of opinion's on that -- by opinion's, I mean INFLAMMATORY back-and-forth -- but I think most here would agree that unless you are an expert or have expertise in a particular coin, don't buy ungraded especially for Big Buck$$$. So I applaud you. Hey, that's what we are here for....we ALL were where you are, learning and gathering information. When I bought my original Saint Double Eagles, they were generic commons in MS-65 so the premium to gold was maybe 15-20% or so. There wasn't much risk in the coin. My most recent purchase was an MS-66 1923-D at FUN 2020 where the premium was much closer to 75%. Other more scarce purchases I hope to make in coming years may see premiums to gold bullion of 100-500%. So I will spend lots of time doing DD before buying these coins, it is basic common sense. If I overpay on a $200 commemorative or whatnot, no big deal.

There was a very sharp 10% run-up in the price of gold in early-2022 in reaction to high-flying growth stocks getting slammed, interest rates rising, inflation jumping, and expectations of Chinese/Indian jewelry buying. With prices having settled back down, sellers have moderated those price spikes of early-2022.

If anybody has Roger's SAINTS DOUBLE EAGLE book, check out the price matrices included for every coin going fro 1976 - 2015. You can see how the coins moved up and down right at key inflection points like 1977, 1980, 1985, 1989-90, 1999-2000, 2008-09, and 2011.

Again, in 1980 prices had quadrupled in 18 months. In 1990, they had doubled in a year or so. THAT'S a bubble. I see the 15-20% boost for prices you see, but I think it is a delayed reaction to the 2019-20 pandemic boost in interest in our hobby followed by the stimulus checks. Originally, we saw all the cheap "junky" stuff that was lower-priced show the biggest increases. Stuff like Big Denomination Bills in lower-to-mid grades, not the PMG-65 notes costing $3,500 or so. Silver Morgans and commemoratives like the Saint-Gaudens National Park issues. The NFT and digital crappola craze seems to have crested, I think maybe that money is going back to traditional stuff like art, antiques, coins, etc.

They're still selling the 1st Edition, not sure if they are actually printing new ones or dipping into inventory. But I know that a revised and updated edition has to be less time-consuming for whoever does it than the initial edition. You have to update the price grids....replace dated statements of fact no longer valid....give new information on the coin for various years....maybe include a new chapter or two on the big Saint events since the 1st Edition (the 1933 Saint and coin booms-and-busts come to mind). But it's got to be less time than writing the initial book. You have an outline already in place. And I suspect that many of the buyers of the 1st Edition a long time ago would purchase the 2nd Edition -- I know I would, and that's with RWB's book out there, too.

Were you a truck or cab driver ? Assuming you're in your 70's or earlier, that's close to or over 100,000 miles a year which is about 300 miles a day EVERY day or 400 miles for every working day. Or maybe you were just too high with your estimate.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you consider your coins an "investment." Stocks, bonds, mutual funds, cash -- those are investments. Coins are like art or baseball cards: highly speculative. Eagle, I don't think we are in a "high price bubble" for coins. Bulls and bears can make a case for higher or lower prices at any time, including the present. But to me a bubble is 1978-80 or 1989-90. We've also had big price moves but which weren't bubbles IMO like 2000-08 and 2009-11. I'm all for a bear case even if I think bullish is in order....but saying we are in a bubble NOW doesn't resonate with me. If gold prices tanked for some reason, that could drive gold coins alot lower but is gold at unsustainable levels ? I don't think so. Trading range going back 5-10 years or so, depending on when you measure from.

I don't believe there are other shipwrecks which went down with American coins. I think RWB (noted author and researcher) posted here about the SS Republic (I think that was the ship) and how there MIGHT be more Liberty DEs and other gold coins but they've been talking about a salvage for years and are missing key location information.

I think they are up to the 7th Edition for Morgans but like I said above, they are still on the 2004 1st Edition for Liberty and Saint Double Eagles, which is frustrating.

BTW, Welcome Aboard, DS. Do you have an interest in Double Eagles or gold coins in general...or maybe the Liberty type coins ? Not sure about your level of knowledge and expertise, but there's tons of good stuff on these forums....in the coins sold in the past over at HA (the coin information attached to some of the rarer coins is priceless)....and in some very good Double Eagle books (maybe you have them). I follow Double Eagles, but my interest is more in the Saint-Gaudens types. I do hope to add some Liberty's in the future.

I agree with Coinbuf. Let me add, assuming you create a HA account and can see the prices, I do not believe you paid a bad price for the coin (subject to seeing it, of course). It seems to be right in the middle of the range for AU coins, though the price appears to drop a large amount when going from AU-58 to AU-50. Note a recent sale of a PCGS M-61 for just under $10,000 earlier in 2022. It also appears that these were coins impacted by the SS Republic salvage. So that may have increased supply (decreased price) or maybe EXPANDED the circle of folks who could collect this coin thus bringing in new buyers who never could afford the previously supply-constrained price (like with the SS Central America and the 1857-S). I'm not an expert on the 1860-S or the SS Republic so I'll let others chime in.

Most of use Heritage Auctions, probably the premier auction site for coins, and Great Collections, a recent up-and-comer. Here are some recent 1860-S sales from the HA archives: https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Ns=Time|1||Lot+No|0&N=790+231+51+402&Ntt=1860-S+Double+Eagle&ic4=SortBy-071515 You should login/create an account if the coins don't show up. It looks like sales earlier in 2022 for AU50-58's range from $3,000 to $3,800 or so. That includes the buyers premium (bp).

Are those the $$$ amounts for the coin in question, $3,500 and $4,000 ? We have no way of judging since we don't know what coin it is. It could be a coin that comes up for sale every week or every few weeks....or it could be one that comes up every few months or less. That is important. And using recent auction prices for an identical or similar coin is probably the best.

Yes, I would think runs of a few thousand are appropriate. But I think the RED BOOKS might be larger or they do succesive mini-runs because lots of people starting out will go to those books as a starter for knowledge. Even thought it's getting dated, the 2004 1st Edition of Bowers DOUBLE EAGLE RED BOOK is still worthwhile as an easier read than Roger's magnus opus. I do wish they'd do a 2nd Edition, though. The Akers and Bowers books on Saints were constructed nicely -- each book contains sections on other gold coins (Indian Heads, Liberty DEs) so you attract potential buyers other than Saints.

If you were taken to the Registry Page by mistake....and especially if logging out and then logging in didn't solve the problem....you should use an Incognito Tab/Window to re-login.

Some people might not be into reading anything, let alone coin books even if they are a collector. As a Saint and Double Eagle fan, there aren't that many books out there. To me, you have to get Bower's Red Book on DE's, the dated but classic Akers/Ambio book on Indian Heads & Saints, and of course Roger's Saints DE book which is the modern Bible on Saints. There are estimated about 25,000 serious or type collectors of Saints....how many have bought any of those 3 books ?

We've gotten some active threads in the last few months and years, and folks keep them alive. That's something. The thread on RWB's Double Eagle Book is going on 2 1/2 years. Almost 60 pages. Other forums.....GTG and Do You Like This Coin threads seem to dominate. Unlike sports or politics threads where lots of people vent, nobody is going to vent on a coin forum. So....the people here post about prospective purchases or actual purchases...which THEY like to talk about but others might not. For example, I have no knowledge (or interest) on many of the coin threads here so I can't/won't post on them. I simply have nothing to contribute other than congratulating someone on a nice purchase. That's why I post on and keep an interest in on more popular and expensive coins....like MCMVII High Reliefs in particular and Saints in general -- even though I have only a few of the latter and none of the former. They're classic coins that MOST of us have some knowledge about, even if we don't actually have an interest in the coins and/or own any. We can also debate things like the influence of PM prices on the coins, population data, new finds via hoards, and of course, unique items like the 1933 Saint(s). On other forums, things get heated but I LOVE debating and going back-and-forth; what fun is it if everyone agrees with you ? That's why I do like it when Kurt and I debated the Double Eagle case a while back with lots of posts. I learned things from him; hopefully he got some stuff from me, too. It's easy to find articles and books talking about the historical significance of Saints, Morgans, and a few other coins....not so Indian Cents, Nickels, or Quarters. We should know in another year or so.

They DID collect coins, I believe.

I agree with you here. But I disagree on who should have had the burden of proof and other procedural rulings and so-called "findings of fact." Plus, there's lots of other stuff that I agree probably shouldn't have been entered into court but showed the garbage thrown out by the government (i.e, threatening Roy Langbord with imprisonment).

Then why not argue the coin was illegal and the only reason there was an Export/Import License was some bureaurcratic i-d-i-o-t screwed up ? The government clearly felt that without controlling the venue (i.e., judge shopping) and with discovery and other facts open to being included....they might not win. They MIGHT win -- but they might NOT. I don't want to go into the whole 1933 DE again and hijack the thread...but this whole thing assumes that Switt or whomever got them out of the Philly Mint did so illegally and/or STOLE them. No proof of either has ever been shown. That's why I always thought a settlement was fair to both parties.

Several posters/moderators there have published books, articles, etc.

Right, I'm saying that the Farouk/Fenton piece (part of the Elite Collection whose owner(s) post here ) itself was subject to seizure, civil penalties, and criminal charges. The government changed their mind once evidence was found that showed they weren't 100% entitled to ownership.