GoldFinger1969

You can still see it above. But I've seen other, earlier photos of the 1933 with a different angle where it is harder to see that gash. It's still there...still visible....but definitely washed-out. Again....lighthing and angles.

Agreed.....

May as well show the pics ....here they are:

Very interesting that a recent photo of the 1933 Saint -- I think I saw it over on the CAC Forum posted by someone or EC -- showed a very glittery gold appearance with lots of luster. You look at the TrueView pics or the ones in Roger's book, and it looks totally bland and dull. Just goes to show you that lighting and angles make all the difference.

I'm not sure, Cat....but don't forget you also have the 2 SP 1921's, too.

I'm very interested in this Wall Street bond trader guy who apparently goes for high-end Saints if not entire collections or registry sets (or maybe he does but is keeping it secret). He may or may not be the same guy referenced as living in CT. But he supposedly has several UHRs and a nice 1927-D plus some other coins. It would be ironic if I sent this guy my resume over the years and never hooked up. Figures, with my luck.....

$4,400,000 including bp. Here's the link with the usual great HA writeup: https://coins.ha.com/itm/saint-gaudens-double-eagles/double-eagles/1927-d-20-ms66-pcgs-pcgs-9187-/a/1348-3417.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515 This is the DALLAS BANK 1927-D; I have the catalog (excerpted in the write-up). It is listed as the 3rd best 1927-D by HA; I believe other independent writers/periodicals have agreed with that ranking (I have one saved somewhere on my PC; I can check if anybody wants). I was at the auction for the Stephen Duckor 1927-D 65+ at FUN 2020. Went for just over $2 MM with BP. The prices for the 1927-D and the MCMVII Ultra High Relief coins seem to move in lock-step. Their populations are very similar so maybe that is not a surprise.

I'm not sure, I'll research and report back unless someone beats me to it. But then I saw that EC was an active poster on the CAC Forum so he's up-to-speed on what I posted above. Also am now wondering if Simpson's sale of coins is related to his divorce. Not sure he would HAVE to sell, but maybe he chose to. The estimate of the value ($200 MM) makes it material even to a guy with his net worth.

1921 SP for Peace Dollars or Saints ? I just think that most dealers are looking to make a living and are satisfied with 90% or 95% accuracy. A numismatic researcher like you can strive for 100% -- they can't.

Charmy, have you noticed more people....more YOUNG people.....more BEGINNERS.....at your table since Covid-19 ? We've all heard the anectdotal stories about people at home picking up new hobbies with their keyboard. Wondering if it is translating into traffic and a commitment past the stay-at-home surge of 2020/21.

I think the overgrading was unconnected to the "2 specific types of coins" I referenced. I am just saying that was where many coin collectors and many INVESTORS/bullion buyers who waded into graded coins got burned. I know, I had many clients buy Saint-Gaudens coins for $2,000 and $2,500 and $3,000 and up. Gold was maybe $400 an ounce back then....HUGE premiums. I told them to stop and many took losses but thanked me later for cutting their losses and not buying more as we went even higher on the upside. As for technical grading into market-based grading....beyond my pay grade, discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere....so I'll just say "It is what it is" and for better or worse you had a subtle switch over the years. And as market grading took hold, you got the looser standards accelerate within that format. My understanding is that John Albanese personally looks at every CAC'd coin -- but I stand ready to be corrected by those who actually submit and/or have spoken to JA. If his review percentage is less than 100%, it's still probably close to that on Saints and gold coins, as those seem to be of particular interest to him and CAC.

No, I just think from what I read they were among THE most popular coins at the time and also the key players in the 1988-90 Bubble. Those were the coins hawked by the telemarketers....Blanchard..... dealers....etc. They skyrocketed via numismatic premiums....and then collapsed 75-85%. It stands to reason they saw the loosest or among the loosest grading standards over the post-Bubble years.

EC, make sure you are sitting down when you read this: Laura/Legend said over at CAC Forums: "I was shocked he (Simpson) sold the ultra. He was really stressed at the time. I think he deeply regrets it. He is still mad at me selling his other one. We tried to buy the PCGS 1907 MS67 CAC $20 in the CSNS Sale. Ooops we lost. His Saints and $10 Indians rank among the best....For as much as I harp about Simpson, the really best saint set is in CT. A guy has 3+ UHR's, the 27-D Morse 67, 21 in MS66, and the 25-S PCGS MS68, etc, He is not on any registry. He has $10 Indians too. We battled him in Morse and everywhere else." I'm wondering if that is the "Wall Street Bond Trader" guy who I think has a Top 3 UHR. Have to check my notes.

John Albanese posts now in his CAC Forum on the CAC website....had some good information in some of the posts, might go back and grab some of the more important ones. You never know if they'll disappear.

Speak of the Devil......

Maybe....but I don't think CAC could justify the time, effort, or cost to do CACing for Pennies and Nickels.

Is that from a detailed interview he gave years ago with some guy named "Maurice" or from the new CAC message boards ?

If you are WILLING to pay MORE for a coin that you know has been looked at by 2 experts (including John Albanese, who was involved at both PCGS and NGC), that is what you are getting. You have NO IDEA who at PCGS or NGC graded your coin. But if you have a Saint-Gaudens and it has a CAC, you know that John Albanese liked the coin (and he has a reputation for being "tough" on gold coins).

I think that the #1 reason for CAC -- and I could be wrong -- would be the super-loose grading given to two coins: Saints and Morgans, probably THE KEY coins for most dealers and/or coin shows especially back in the 1990's and early-2000's (right before CAC started).

Thanks Dave....would you say that folks at the time were submitting entire collections or the bulk of their collections...or just a few select coins ? I know it's not an exact thing, just trying to get your impression.

Was talking about the grading of memorabilia and sports cards and how PSA (affiliated with privately held CU) prohibited new submissions because the wait list was getting too long. I think they put it in place last Summer; it may still be in effect. Got me thinking: when PCGS and NGC started up in 1986 and 1987, how big was the flood of submittances ? Were turnaround times long ? Any submittances rejected because of backlog ? I'm not sure if the coin collecting community -- mostly older compared to today's memorabilia submitters -- was as eager to submit as I see today with PSA.

Come to FUN 2023 and a bunch of us should be there. Although as I recall I went to this nearby Thai restaurant 3 nights in a row !!

Very nice job. Thanks for taking the time to post this. I think I saw you speak on a panel discussion or something at FUN 2020 on Flying Cents or something, I can't remember.

Who DID do this research back then (besides you, assuming you did it then) ?

I realize there was no internet and no lightning-response capability back in the 1980's and before....but why would someone like Breen -- who clearly knew coins -- try and "cut corners" by trying to assert things that weren't true ? I guess it's like folks who can play baseball but use PEDs or Madoff trying to juice his alleged returns rather than take a hit for 1 or 2 bad years.