GoldFinger1969

You got something BETTER to do the next 2 weeks ? Get to reading, FM !!

If this was 1988-90 it was possible modern silvers/golds were getting dragged upward by the bubble in numismatics. That's all I can think of. I think JA left NGC by the early-1990's, right ?

Well, I hope the "unspoken" stuff is eventually published by you somewhere. Not contacting you was dumb -- I mean, HA knows you wrote a book on DEs and have a few pages on these coins. Maybe they lost your phone number....... As for the owners of the coin saying no to an examination....thanks for nothing, dorks. Do you think that Roger's eyes are going to generate heat vision and ruin the coin ? Some people are just selfish.

Going there NOW....just finished the write-up from HA on the coin.

Yes !!! Then knock-out gas is dispersed in the room.....the perps are rendered unconscious.....then they are hung over a vat of acid with ropes that are being slowly burned by candles. Oh wait...that was from an episode of BATMAN. Never mind........

Huh ???????

1 thing we can agree on....the coin(s) ARE unique. They are not just regular business strike 1921's.

And then buy a Saint, Liberty, or Indian Head ?

Elementary, my dear Zadok....elementary. I have enormous respect for Roger but Saint experts like John Albanese were also very definitive in saying if you didn't see the date you'd swear it was a 1909 Proof. I guess the $64,000 question...or rather, the $2,000,000 question is......if we can never conclusively trace the lineage and whether it is a proof or not....should the coin be marketed or sold as such ? I think Roger says NO, for good/his reasons....others disagree and probably say unless it has been DISPROVEN as a proof, it gets the benefit of the doubt. That's the debate in a nutshell as I see it.

If this is known, then all the more reason to take preemptive action. Feds or local cops should also maybe run a sting...have a couple of retired cops pose as an elderly couple dealer with alot of cash at their table and then drive off. See if anybody follows them.

Wait a second....NOBODY was on the vendor show floor when this lunch was going on ? WTF ? There should be a person or persons -- maybe armed -- on the floor with all the valuable cases at all times. My astronomy show has 24-hour coverage and this is with folks probably topping out at maybe $50,000 worth of merchandise (maybe 1 or 2 or 3 of the 100+ vendors have $100K or $150K with very expensive optics).

I don't think it is "fairy-tale" driven.....I think you could be right but right now WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE. What we really need is for all the experts like yourself to list their pros and cons on this coin....participate on a panel discussion or something or on an interactive blog....cross-check each other's arguments and suppositions....and then see if we can eliminate the false from the true and the we're-not-sures. JMHO.

Before or after your Saints book was published ? So you think it was struck on a toggle press and not a medal press ? But that still doesn't answer why this coin looks different and has a different surface. Also, what do you mean in the book by "strongly clashed dies" -- what does that mean ? Anybody ?

Thanks for the heads-up, Mike....I'll have to see if I can get that article. You would think now that anybody overseas who had a 1933 Double Eagle would have had a friend or contact make a public announcement OR contact the Treasury/Mint to feel them out. Or they can just tell them "American court decisions are not binding on Europeans" -- which is true. I know nothing about European law, but maybe the U.S. government would have to PROVE that the coins were stolen, not rely on this "preponderance of the evidence" standard. If we assume an even 25 1933's were swapped out, then it's very plausible if you do a count of all 1933's ID'd to date....that there are some overseas and/or still in the U.S.

Do you think that PCGS and NGC also had more well-known folks (D. Hall, J. Albanese, etc.) so that folks were more interested in seeking out those 2 TPGs ? ANACS clearly had 1st-mover advantage.

Yes, and it also helps spread the joy of these shows to newcomers and beginners who might think it's not for them and not worth the cost. They may think it's just for the Big Boys. This spreads the word. Thanks, Charmy.

Good points....and yeah, SSCA for the story behind it, the key coins like the 1857-S, the retrieval of the coins from the ocean.....no wonder so many people paid ridiculous prices for the coins 20 years ago.

You wonder, if with all the pent-up demand for classic coins when they first opened for business, if the 2 TPGSs would have even been able to handle modern coins individually submitted, let alone mass submittances like you see today with dealers sending in hundreds or thousands at a time.

I understand how some purists may not like the grading of modern coins and there are certainly some bastardizations that we see with their sales. But if it helps get NEW people into the hobby and keeps folks, I'm OK with it. Doesn't affect grading or values of older certified coins.

Heritage said this about the 1921 SP Saint: "We believe the appearance of the 1921 proof double eagle is one of the most important numismatic discoveries of the 21st century." I know they want to write exciting marketing pieces, but come on....maybe say it's one of the most important Saint-Gaudens numismatic discoveries ?? But the entire numismatic hobby ? How about the hoards, Wells Fargo to SS Central America ? I'm not an expert or even an experienced numismatist....and even though I am a Saint fan....I would say that this "discovery" is MAYBE Top 20 of the last 100-125 years. I doubt it's Top 10. JMHO....I'm re-reading the HA piece and then will hit Roger's book later this evening for his section on the coins in case we re-visit this (it was talked about over on the CAC Forums).

Sounds like it was from YEARS ago, maybe right after Langbord. I heard and read similar stories about overseas 1933's and it MAY be true but I can't see anybody bringing them back now as they would be seized immediately. We also had 1 domestic U.S. 1933 Saint that was "voluntarily" (!) handed over to the government in 2018.

Julian is a pretty reputable numismatist, do you have that article ? It might be dated. On Farouk....I guess the conjecture is that the current coin owned by our friend EC is NOT the same coin that was actually owned by Farouk. I guess someone is saying at some point someone "switched" coins which means the real Farouk coin is hidden. Would someone have done this if the current coin is a higher-quality coin ? I guess if they had enough foresight to realize only 1 coin would be allowed (and they really couldn't know that at the time), it was a good strategy. I believe someone once said that a picture of the Farouk Saint was different from what is the current coin -- or something like that. Then there was a question of using stock photos vs. actual ones, etc...etc....etc. Who the heck knows....all I know is that EC has the 1933 Saint and it's the only legal one and he's convinced it's the Farouk coin so that's it.

Even I had trouble with that "New & Improved" or whatever on the 1921 SP. That was clearly marketing. Look, anybody with enough $$$ to bid on that certainly has some people working for him to ferret out the most minute details as to accuracy, that's how I look at it. The general public won't be fooled or misled -- unless the general public is bidding on 7-figure coins.

CAC Forums has some excellent threads including one on The Simpson Collection (Bob, not Bart ) where our own EC is active. I didn't know that "Half Dome" was a current/recent collection that is still active and there are some other heavy-hitters (some anonymous, some not) active in Saint Land.

I will re-check, thanks Zad. A bit tired and overworked of late....my brain has been like a 2-cylinder engine asked to pull an 18-wheeler.