GoldFinger1969

Any beginner or newcomer here can simply create a thread...tell us what they have interest in....and then ask where to find information on those coins here, elsewhere, in print, etc.

LET ME IN: Cognizant that Groucho Marx once said he'd refuse to join any club that would have him as a member, I have officially taken the plunge into the Rooster club ! I want to thank QA for his excellent posts on these little-known gold coins (to us Americans, at least , excepting of course him !!) as well as some additional special help in obtaining this beaut. Thanks, QA! I'll have additional commentary and information once I figure out what the hell I am talking about. In the meantime, I'm sure QA will be able keep this thread going if others want to chime in.

Heritage just sold a PSA 9.5 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle Rookie Card for $12,600,000. I was at the show when Alan "Mr. Mint" Rosen sold the card to the guy selling it for $50,000 back in 1991. Unfortunately, I didn't have that much cash on me that day. https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-cards/singles-1950-1959-/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-311-sgc-mint-95-1985-rosen-find-finest-known-example-/a/50058-53014.s?ic=hero-www-SportsPlatinumMantle-viewLot-50058-082822

Don't you think things are BETTER for the buyer and seller compared to when you needed coins graded estimate-wise by catalogers like with Menjou, Price, Eliasburg, etc ?

It's my OPINION Kurt...based on the facts we have to date and the accounts of what happened...so yeah, of course it's not gospel. But it's not "unsubstantiated" or lies, either. Having worked security alongside professionals I picked up a few tidbits. I have friends who perform personal and property security for some of the country's wealthiest individuals. So it's not just BS, OK ? But I'm willing to let the ANA and their security firm divulge what went wrong and if I am wrong, I'll admit it and apologize. How's that ? What do you want to bet both parties say nothing ? And RWB has nothing to do with this issue or my opinion on it, but to the extent you have a professional or personal disagreement with him, that is even more "unsubstantiated" than my opinion. Considering he's one of the country's foremost numismatic authors/researchers and has written numerous scholarly books, your "opinion" doesn't hold water.

With that being said, I want to come clean and acknowledge guilt in participating......

You're assuming the leaders in those areas care about the killings. Trust me, they do NOT.

Well, my guy above is 15 pounds. Maybe I can rent him out to the ANA as an attack dog ?

I meant threads get deleted or a server problem where archived material is lost.

BTW Zad, I've seen very few dog parks/runs that are larger than 900x100. Most are about 200x100. The one near my parents in South Jersey has one approximating your dimensions, maybe even more. But that's the outlier among the dozen or so dog parks I've visited.

My major point remains: hire TOP NOTCH security people and this incident never happens. They stole the ENTIRE case in broad daylight....it's not like someone helped themselves to a 5-finger discount of a watch or two. There is no way an entire case (which can't fit into a pants pocket) should leave on motorized vehicle past security. You can also have cameras rigged to take pictures of anyone who crosses an electronic beam.

90,000 square feet.

Maybe NGC's "liberal" modern grading gave it the reputation for gradeflation in that area. If Albanese knew more supply in "rare" moderns would be coming and thus dropping the price....it's not unlike what some expect with sportscards and memorabilia as more supply gets graded/certified. Interesting....... Agree with your excellent points.....I usually find myself bidding/buying on PR69's rather than paying another 50-200% for a 70. Does your 70 vs. 69 analysis also apply to ASEs and Silver Commemoratives (i.e., National Park Saint-Gaudens stuff)....gold Eagles and Buffalos and other gold modern coins (including commemoratives) ? Or are you mostly talking about Quarters and mass-collected stuff like that with much lower price points ?

Sounds like if they snuck in as dealers it should be easy to catch or ID them. I hope they had cameras there !

They didn't sneak it out....according to Charmy, they literally took the entire case. Sounds like some camera may have caught them. These venues which are regularly used for conventions or get-togethers should have Hi-Def/4K videos running from multiple locations with zoom-ins. Recorded in a control room. Costs a fraction of what it did 20-30 years ago. Thousands of dollars an hour then; maybe $200 an hour today.

Beat by a distracted guard ? By people blending in ? Sorry, that is amateur hour. This is EXACTLY what you pay a security firm to prevent. Nobody is coming through the skylight on a rope like Tom Cruise in MISSION IMPOSSIBLE. My friend works security for one of the Top 50 wealthiest people in the U.S.....their procedures are all geared to stop this stuff and consider it 1st Level entries. They are prepared for 2 levels higher, much more sophisticated, like professional military and/or security folks.

Then you adjust personnel numbers....FUN is 600 vendors or so.....you might need more personnel for a larger forum (I would say OCCC was 3x the size of the Field House we use)...but the principles are the same. Point is, this theft wasn't even well-planned....it wasn't Ocean's 11 or even Ocean's 8 (good movie with a female cast ! )....they need to hire a PROFESSIONAL security company, the ones that safeguard billionaires and art shows.

Our astronomy show has 100-120 vendors coming from across the country with hundreds of people going in-and-out....trucks, cars, vans.....helpers and dealers....people coming from Europe, California, and the Tri-State area. Procedures are procedures. Basic stuff applies to any show. From what Charmy wrote, some of the "procedures" look like they were grabbed off the internet.

Yeah...and you can't hire a couple of kids and some ex-bus drivers looking to pick up some PT work as "security." Let me tell you a story when me and a guy were working with the professional security team for my astronomy club (we are probably the largest amateur expo in the country with 100-120 vendors with stuff costing tens of thousands at most tables). Obviously, selling stolen astronomy stuff (scopes/eye pieces/meteorites/etc.) is tougher than selling coins or jewels or Rolexes but you are still talking about thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars even. We're at the entrance to the field house....things slow down....we are on both sides of a huge truck door entrance (12 feet high; 15 feet wide). Nobody gets IN or OUT without a dealer badge and/or the highly visible security windbreakers. We are to look at each other across the entrance....out towards the parking lot....and then inside towards the vendor floor. No talking, no BSing, no nothing. My eyes are on my partner....the parking lot....the vendor floor. Wash, rinse, repeat.... Well, my partner takes out his smartphone...checks some text messages.....I was looking out at the parking lot....all of a sudden, the security professional is screaming at 200 decibels: "WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU DOING ? WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU DOING ? WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU DOING ?" I nearly had a heart attack as the place was quiet aside from people milling about and forklifts moving (no cars or people through the entrance). He slightly lowered -- slightly -- and said you don't look anywhere other than at me, the parking lot, and the vendor floor. You don't reach for your smartphone. You don't read a text message. You don't take a phone call. If somebody collapses and suffers a heart attack or stroke on the floor or you get a call about that.....you CALL HIM (the security head). It was a scene out of "Full Metal Jacket" with the Marine Drill Seargant ripping the new recruits. This is what the coin shows need to hire....PROFESSIONAL security people, not folks looking to make some extra income wearing SECURITY jackets with no knowledge of procedures. You have to pay up -- but it is worth it. My club went cheap 20 years ago and paid some outfit like $500-$750 for half-a**** "security" and someone stole some stuff from a vendor. Then we anted up for a few thousand dollars for 48 hours of perfection and nobody has lost anything since. No reason to go cheap. It's a small expense in the scheme of things.

Some comments and questions on Charmy's intro: So does this mean that HA and Stacks can't be anywhere in the convention center -- or just on the bourse/floor show ? I remember at FUN 2020 (last show I attended) that I believe HA may have been the official sponsor and they held their 1927-D Saint and other auctions in a nice little room not far from the convention entrance doors. So in addition to having Dealer Time before the show opens on the 1st Day to the public....there are Dealer Days before the official start of the show -- is that correct ? I'm curious....I've heard that 80% of many dealers business is these dealer-to-dealer transactions...it's where they get inventory....where they make money.....but.... How are they making money if they sell their stuff to other dealers (who presumably have to get it below the retail price to sell it themselves)....or....charge full retail price which is no bargain to the other dealer buyer ? I guess this is why I never owned my own business. This is amateur hour. The place running the show CLEARLY doesn't have security people, they just have some young people or folks looking for some PT work who get a 2-week training in Security Procedures and get badges. I can't believe that ANYBODY could be allowed to "blend in" when a show is being set up and people are coming-and-going. You need ALL entrances and exits locked....just one place for folks to come in-and-out. No professional security guard gets "distracted" -- you're on the lookout for that. Nobody "blends in" -- you have specially made highly-visible fluouresent orange or yellow windbreakers with the specific show's name blazened front and back. Yes, I know these procedures -- I was an overnight guard for our club one year and worked alongside professionals who taught me alot in the few days of the show.

The dealers need to hire 1 or 2 of their own key security people and not rely on the convention place.

They might not report them, but grade them as MS-63.

Mike, thanks for the article heads-up. A few points of interest: The article gets the date of 1st striking wrong. It states March 15, 1933 the long cited date. But RWB produced evidence in the trial that it was actually March 2nd according to the Mint Super. Treasury Secretary Woodin's 5 coins have oft-been cited. For those certain that Switt swapped out 20 or 25 coins, these 5 DEs present a problem. Unlikely Woodin needed Switt to get coins. If Woodin was allowed his coins....would they be legal today ? What if they are in Europe or America ? Obviously, you can't prove lineage, unfortunately. But why should one side have to prove that Woodin NEVER owned 1933 DEs ? I can't tell from the Flanagan Catalog picture if that is a picture of the present 1933 Saint -- not enough closeup to ID that leg gash. This Leland Howard guy is quite a character. He just literally determined the coins were "stolen" without any proof, checking facts, checking gold balances, etc. Incompetent to the Nth degree. No wonder he worked for the government !! Did Switt and M. Max Mehl BOTH sell King Farouk a 1933 Saint ? That's what Julian writes, but that implies Farouk had not 1 but 2 Double Eagles. That could explain some of the switcheroo talk. But I've not seen any other citations that Farouk bought a 1933 from 2 different dealers. If I were a dealer back then -- or even today -- I wouldn't want the government or the FBI or Treasury or Mint officials being told with whom I bought or sold coins. When word gets around that you talk, your credibility is shot. "Hey, be sure to buy your coins from Goldfinger1969...ratted out my purchase to the Feds and I had to spend $15,000 on legal expenses to justify the coins." Who would want that ? No wonder they all had selective memory loss. Good for Julian for noting the U.S. Government had selective memory loss in the 1947 Barnard case. Langbord attorney's brain was on vacation when he said to send in all 10 for authentication. You send in 1 coin...maybe 5 coins. Get those back....then send back the rest. They lost all leverage.

Unless a draped table is like a Romulan Cloaking Device....you simply lift the fabric up and see if a couple of hoods are underneath. Hint: they're bigger than a breadbox.

I think someone posted that a few pages back. Maybe Fred will chime in here.