Words of personal wisdom from a member.
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Member VKurtB had the following intellectually and numismatically insightful comment on another thread:

 

On 3/1/2022 at 12:09 PM, VKurtB said:

Roger, your “contribution” (as if…) is nothing more then glorified REGURGITATION of known material. And it is worth exactly that … vomit. 

 

Omitting the personal reference, is it the opinion of coin collectors that numismatic research is "glorified regurgitation" or "vomit?" How about other kinds of research and investigation?

 

Edited by RWB
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On 3/1/2022 at 12:24 PM, RWB said:

Member VKurtB had the following intellectually and numismatically insightful comment on another thread:

 

Roger, your “contribution” (as if…) is nothing more then glorified REGURGITATION of known material. And it is worth exactly that … vomit. 

 

Omitting the personal reference, is it the opinion of coin collectors that numismatic research is "glorified regurgitation" or "vomit?" How about other kinds of research and investigation?

 

Be sure to segregate the opinions based on years in this hobby, Roger. Some people like to take the “Readers Digest Condensed Version Narrative, with Story Telling Time” path to 58 years of experience. Annnnnd some of us don’t. 

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On 3/1/2022 at 1:24 PM, RWB said:

Member VKurtB had the following intellectually and numismatically insightful comment on another thread:

 

Roger, your “contribution” (as if…) is nothing more then glorified REGURGITATION of known material. And it is worth exactly that … vomit. 

 

Omitting the personal reference, is it the opinion of coin collectors that numismatic research is "glorified regurgitation" or "vomit?" How about other kinds of research and investigation?

 

...since the question was posed.....it depends on how it is presented?....the operative words r..."numismatic research"...compiling known/existing data n applying conjecture n speculation to establish an opinion would not constitute research, the work needs to establish a contribution of merit, if it doesnt then it has little to no real value....

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On 3/1/2022 at 12:38 PM, zadok said:

...since the question was posed.....it depends on how it is presented?....the operative words r..."numismatic research"...compiling known/existing data n applying conjecture n speculation to establish an opinion would not constitute research, the work needs to establish a contribution of merit, if it doesnt then it has little to no real value....

AT THE VERY LEAST, ROGER, you should be applying transparency where to date you have NOT BEEN DOING SO. Yes, the “spaces between the spaces” DO NEED filling in, and to the extent you apply the old “college try” to doing that, you are to be commended. God knows, there’s precious little of it elsewhere. But you also do have some VERY SEVERE SHORTCOMINGS ALSO, Roger. 
 

Your choice of language is somewhere between sloppy and dishonest. You present as fact material that is opinion or speculation at best, and fairy tales at worst. You mislead people. And worse, I think you know you do, too. Yes, you ALSO unmask yesteryear’s liars and charlatans, and you also deserve kudos for that. But this is NOT a field filled with many tellers of truth, and far too many liars. 
 

You attempt to serve a niche market of people who THINK they’re starved of information. But if they are, they are BY CHOICE ALONE. Many walked away from the opportunity to have a $5 membership in the ANA, which expired 1/31/22. What the natural f***? For 5 bucks they could have had searchable digital access to LITERALLY EVERY issue of The Numismatist ever written, easily the best research tool ever in this field. 
 

If they couldn’t have bothered to do even that, I say “—— em!”

Edited by VKurtB
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Read The Numismatist. 
Read The Clarion. 
Read The FUN Times.

Read The Gobrecht Journal. 
Spend a whole bunch LESS time on YouRube.

Even spend less time HERE, frankly. 

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What I wrote on the other thread:

You're free to not value it as highly as some of us.  But I think most of us believe there's definite worth in assembling this research and hidden gems and putting it into easily-accessible notes, books, articles, etc.

Taken to your logical extreme, all the information on everything is already out there....so nobody should write about anything since they're just "regurgitating" what is already out there.

Quality original research is always good.  Might not be your cup of tea, I admit.  I'm not into some of Roger's topics or books (like Peace Dollars) but I wouldn't say it is junk just because I don't like it.  Someone might say the same thing about his Saints book that I love.

 

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On 3/1/2022 at 1:55 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What I wrote on the other thread:

You're free to not value it as highly as some of us.  But I think most of us believe there's definite worth in assembling this research and hidden gems and putting it into easily-accessible notes, books, articles, etc.

Taken to your logical extreme, all the information on everything is already out there....so nobody should write about anything since they're just "regurgitating" what is already out there.

Quality original research is always good.  Might not be your cup of tea, I admit.  I'm not into some of Roger's topics or books (like Peace Dollars) but I wouldn't say it is junk just because I don't like it.  Someone might say the same thing about his Saints book that I love.

 

I do agree with you about Peace dollars, which routinely showed up in the cash drawer of my dad’s camera shop in the 1960’s. It’s really tough to get the old juices flowing about “cash register fodder”. Morgans did too. Old “truths” change over time, too. Barr dollars. 1950-D nickels. Silver certificates. Red seal United States Notes. All went from ooh ooh to meh The only constant is change. Gold has a stubborn constituency that gets all glassy-eyed and emotional over the stupid stuff. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 3/1/2022 at 4:43 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

So what about gold ?  It's been part of our civilization for millenia.  Why shouldn't a small number of people have an attachment to it above and beyond what most do ?  No different than art....or horticulture....or gardening.....or sports.  

We all have our loves and dislikes. (thumbsu

Gold has absolutely zero relevance to anything in my life. Class of 1955. All those other things you mentioned do.  Now it DOES have relevance to the “ancient” history of my civilization - exactly NONE of it good or worth celebrating. I do own one Swiss 10 gram bar, bought in Switzerland and brought back BEFORE it was legal again stateside. The old man was a badass. He ALSO was a high school dropout. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 3/1/2022 at 6:40 PM, VKurtB said:

Gold has absolutely zero relevance to anything in my life. Class of 1955. All those other things you mentioned do.  Now it DOES have relevance to the “ancient” history of my civilization - exactly NONE of it good or worth celebrating. I do own one Swiss 10 gram bar, bought in Switzerland and brought back BEFORE it was legal again stateside. The old man was a badass. He ALSO was a high school dropout. 

Like I said, to each his own.  Reminds me of that Reece's Peanut Butter Cup commercial from the early-1970's.

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On 3/1/2022 at 11:24 AM, RWB said:

Member VKurtB had the following intellectually and numismatically insightful comment on another thread:

 

Roger, your “contribution” (as if…) is nothing more then glorified REGURGITATION of known material. And it is worth exactly that … vomit. 

 

Omitting the personal reference, is it the opinion of coin collectors that numismatic research is "glorified regurgitation" or "vomit?" How about other kinds of research and investigation?

 

Without reading any further posts from anyone but yours, Roger I can Truly say there's been your books I bought, read, shelved and went back to. When I read posts across the street from you I noticed the focus on facts. Obviously, unless a person is an insufficiently_thoughtful_person that kind of contribution to Numismatics is extremely important and thank you.  That is my Emotion out if it.

Emotion in it I would say be more positive about the ANA...we are under new leadership and better times ahead......peace 

P.S. I would ask if VKurtB had any educational qualifications or board experience in the areas prudent or with or without that but books sold to his name or pen name...or it doesn't matter anymore.

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Personally I believe that as a class the most important thing humans do is teach the young, and the second most important is research.  

There's little point to research if it isn't then published by some means.  

Almost everything else is just some aspect of feeding ourselves.  

Edited by cladking
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On 3/10/2022 at 7:19 AM, cladking said:

Personally I believe that as a class the most important thing humans do is teach the young, and the second most important is research.  

There's little point to research if it isn't then published by some means.  

Almost everything else is just some aspect of feeding ourselves.  

Well said and inspiring Brother.

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On 3/10/2022 at 10:05 AM, Oldhoopster said:

Some of the backstory.  V. Kurt has had a beef with RWB since the Langford 1933 double eagle case.  In addition, V. Kurt has strongly contented that the 1933 double eagles were always govt property, while Rodger had been a witness for the Langbords.  A lot of this "discussion" was played out on other coin forums

Every once in a while he gets feisty and takes pot shots a RWB.  Take it for what it's worth.  Now get off Kurt's lawn

Most of us know that.  This isn't about the 1933's...more about his attacks on the worth of research and Roger happens to be one of the best modern numismatic researchers out there. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's worthless or not worthy of discussion.  I'm not into 95% of the coins/posts mentioned here but I wouldn't say they are not of value just because they didn't meet my personal threshold for interesting topics.  Someone could say the same thing about my favorites.

I'd be interested in knowing what books or research Kurt likes/repsects because his own coin talk a while back that I saw on the internet from a few years ago was "research."  I liked it even if it wasn't my passion.  He should reciprocate IMO even if it isn't his cup of tea.

Also, Kurt really dislikes anything to do with gold and alot of RWB's research is on gold.

As for Kurt's charitable endeavors.....(thumbsu

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 3/10/2022 at 9:19 AM, cladking said:

Personally I believe that as a class the most important thing humans do is teach the young, and the second most important is research.  

There's little point to research if it isn't then published by some means.  

Almost everything else is just some aspect of feeding ourselves.  

...if its actually research.....just compiling already existing documents isnt research, n positing ones own opinions on the data doesnt make it so....if the end product has merit n contributes so be it, if it doesnt just waste of trees....

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On 3/10/2022 at 10:30 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Most of us know that.  This isn't about the 1933's...more about his attacks on the worth of research and Roger happens to be one of the best modern numismatic researchers out there. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's worthless or not worthy of discussion.  I'm not into 95% of the coins/posts mentioned here but I wouldn't say they are not of value just because they didn't meet my personal threshold for interesting topics.  Someone could say the same thing about my favorites.

I'd be interested in knowing what books or research Kurt likes/repsects because his own coin talk a while back that I saw on the internet from a few years ago was "research."  I liked it even if it wasn't my passion.  He should reciprocate IMO even if it isn't his cup of tea.

Also, Kurt really dislikes anything to do with gold and alot of RWB's research is on gold.

As for Kurt's charitable endeavors.....(thumbsu

...GF u been over drinking the kool-aid again....everything in books bout coins doesnt automatically constitute numismatic research....

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On 3/10/2022 at 4:32 PM, MarkFeld said:

That’s true about numismatic research. However, I don’t know of any other numismatic researcher or author who provides as much information - not just opinion - as RWB.

...theres quantity n then theres quality...sometimes they go hand in hand sometimes they dont.....

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The more I read RWB's works or opinions, and the more I learn by my own experiences in the hobby, the more I realize that Roger works are more fact and quality than anything else. What I have read from RWB's books has yet to be disproven in any of my personal experiences, and those facts that I went to go check, thinking they were false, have only proven to be true. Even if you don't believe what he may say in his books, look at what the mint records say. All of the records I've seen form the mint only back up Roger's work.

For example, let's take the 1936-42 proof coins book. I would like to have someone pull up a better or more factual reference on these proofs. I have done some research myself, as well as a lot of time studying these proofs, and I can say that everything Roger wrote is in line with the research that I have done and the coins I have looked at. I think someone would have a hard time finding something in that book that is completely false. The die tables back up a lot of the work, and if there is anything better than having mint documents and the coins themselves back up research, I would definitely like to hear it. 

As with anyone, we will all have certain things that we will disagree with over certain points. The factual content and ability to learn from Roger's works is not something I will disagree with, at least not yet. Very few other references in the hobby can stack up to Roger's work, because they are just lacking the depth of work that Roger produces. There's a reason he's so well respected IMO.

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On 3/10/2022 at 6:23 PM, zadok said:

...theres quantity n then theres quality...sometimes they go hand in hand sometimes they dont.....

He and I have had a number of disagreements and verbal skirmishes, but I have only positive things to say about the quality of his research and writing.

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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

Both persons are ones I like and admire for the contributions they make to these boards. There will be the occasional clash of ideas, but this is a natural part of scholarly discourse. Recently, I went head to head (figuratively) with Eric Brothers over an article of his published in The Numismatist a couple months ago. My and his positions were published in a subsequent issue, permitting readers to decide for themselves. I've since heard from the scholars I admire the most that mine is the correct interpretation of facts, but I have no animosity toward Eric for stating and defending his position.

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GoldFinger, it was over why the Trade dollar was suspended. I agree with Dave in his point that the metal content was worth well below the value of one dollar, so smart people (technically scammers) would have their silver coined into the Trade dollars and then spend them at one dollar in the United States markets rather than the foreign markets, thereby making money in the process. Lange argued that it was a standalone problem not related in any way to the Bland-Allison act. I agree with this due to the obvious reasons Lange provided.

Brothers argued the point that since Trade Dollars were in circulation after the suspension of their legal tender status, the Bland-Allison act must be responsible for the cause of the suspension of coinage. (At least that is how I understand it, his response doesn't really make any sense to me). He also argues that since there is no evidence to support Lange's statements except the fact that the intrinsic value of the Trade dollar was lower, it must not be true, as well as that the Trade dollar was suspended because it was a threat to the resumption of coinage of a standard dollar. He asks why the Trade dollar was discontinued if it was a success in the export market. The answer, of course, is that it was a way to make money from the gov't for free.

Hope this helps, it was run in the March 2022 issue of The Numismatist.

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On 3/10/2022 at 3:28 PM, zadok said:

...GF u been over drinking the kool-aid again....everything in books bout coins doesnt automatically constitute numismatic research....

True...but I find value in compiling information in a handy manner even if it is not "original" research because things get lost over time even if they are still available because people forget about them if not accessible.

The commentaries of David Akers plus the Heritage commentaries are extremely valuable IMO and putting them together in one PDF is very useful (at least to me).  The variety of sources that they come from makes obtaining those commentaries from books very difficult and in a smartphone-friendly or PC-friendly mode close to impossible. 

All of Roger's thoughts and commentaries on Saints (and other books) are in his recently-published books, even if not in a PC or smartphone-friendly format.  But that is the exception rather than the rule, as those books are all fairly recent.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 3/11/2022 at 4:29 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

True...but I find value in compiling information in a handy manner even if it is not "original" research because things get lost over time even if they are still available because people foreget about them if not accessible.

100% (thumbsu

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On 3/11/2022 at 5:49 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

100% (thumbsu

That's why I say if you have a particular fondness for a coin set....and there is commentary from the HA Archives or any other website....cut-and-paste or copy or download it and save it on YOUR PC (with backups !) in Word and/or PDF format.

Who knows when something will disappear or be taken off or even be lost because of a web or hacker problem.  I PDF every 5 new pages with the RWB Saints Book Thread. (thumbsu

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On 3/10/2022 at 8:05 AM, Oldhoopster said:

Some of the backstory.  V. Kurt has had a beef with RWB since the Langford 1933 double eagle case.  In addition, V. Kurt has strongly contented that the 1933 double eagles were always govt property, while Rodger had been a witness for the Langbords.  A lot of this "discussion" was played out on other coin forums

Every once in a while he gets feisty and takes pot shots a RWB.  Take it for what it's worth.  Now get off Kurt's lawn

 

Edit to add

V. Kurt does a lot volunteer work for the ANA including exhibit judging 

And I serve on two ANA committees also. 1) Exhibiting and 2) Membership and Outreach. Dr. Ralph Ross appointed me to both. I also work for the ANA for free at EVERY convention, spring and summer. I’m in Denver airport posting this. As usual, I ran myself ragged last week, and most of my time on the bourse floor was sitting at the Rest Area grabbing a bite, or slipping into a rest room.  I bought from exactly two table holders. It was all I had time for.  Got four lots at the CNG show auction from Ken Bresett’s British material. 
 

As for writing, I have had articles published in Numismatic News exclusively for almost 20 years. Yes, my responsibilities to the Pennsylvania General Assembly kept that infrequent 2008 to present, as well as my cerebral hemorrhage. My right side disabilities make long form typing a (rhymes with witch). My hand seizes up. Every character in this post is coming from my left thumb, and I was always a righty. I do “Bob Dole handshakes” many times. 
 

But keep an eye out. I’m feeling an Open Letter to the ANA coming, which I will again submit to NN. Hint: I’ll never again be at an ANA show if there is a mask mandate, period!

Edited by VKurtB
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