The NGC Purge - Goodbye Dealers 0

[gmarguli]

Looks like NGC will begin charging dealers for the privilege of being a customer. While I'm sure the new VC Overlords have run the numbers on this, I suspect a lot of smaller dealers will just say screw it and stop using NGC. 

 

I seem to recall MANY years ago PCGS tried some convoluted approach to charging their dealers for the privilege of being a customer. I wish I recalled more about it, but I believe they abandoned it fairly fast. I'm not even sure it went into effect. 

It's hard to support a company when you feel like you're being screwed.

[RWB]

Sounds like an ordinary business decision. Member-dealers will quickly recover the $200 from discounts, and advertising support.

[zadok]

...seems reasonable...if $199 annually causes a dealer to withdraw, said dealer must have a very low level inventory n maybe should reconsider his/her chosen avenue of livelihood...a good dinner in a nice restaurant could easily exceed this dollar amount n for many of the dealers i know maybe even their lunch expense...evolution in a market as competitive as numismatics has become is inevitable...increases have occurred for the collector i see no valid reason that the dealers should be exempt....

[Henri Charriere]

Observation:

Interesting that membership can be paid by credit card only.  No coin or cash, certified check, debit card, PayPal, or bank-wire tranfers.   🤔 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Die polishing: re-wording

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/13/2022 at 6:29 PM, gmarguli said:

I seem to recall MANY years ago PCGS tried some convoluted approach to charging their dealers for the privilege of being a customer. I wish I recalled more about it, but I believe they abandoned it fairly fast. I'm not even sure it went into effect.  It's hard to support a company when you feel like you're being screwed.

Maybe, but post-Covid everyone has to evaluate things they may have underpriced in the past and maybe even not charged for at all.

I work in the financial sector.  It basically costs $3,000 for a firm to take on a client before they make a single dollar off them.  That's the pro-rata share for overhead, regulatory filings, paperwork, insurance, manager fees, etc.  Net-Net.....assuming a 1% (100 basis points) management fee, it doesn't pay for the firm to take on a client if they don't have $500,000. 

I've worked for firms that had $500K and $2 MM minimums.  Some firms it's $10 MM. 

[MarkFeld]

On 1/15/2022 at 1:52 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe, but post-Covid everyone has to evaluate things they may have underpriced in the past and maybe even not charged for at all.

I work in the financial sector.  It basically costs $3,000 for a firm to take on a client before they make a single dollar off them.  That's the pro-rata share for overhead, regulatory filings, paperwork, insurance, manager fees, etc.  Net-Net.....assuming a 1% (100 basis points) management fee, it doesn't pay for the firm to take on a client if they don't have $500,000. 

I've worked for firms that had $500K and $2 MM minimums.  Some firms it's $10 MM. 

I don’t think that applies here. Dealers are typically the much larger revenue sources for the grading companies and nothing has changed in that regard.

[Henri Charriere]

On 1/15/2022 at 4:58 AM, MarkFeld said:

I don’t think that applies here. Dealers are typically the much larger revenue sources for the grading companies and nothing has changed in that regard.

🐓:  I wonder how he knew that?

Q.:  Intuitively, at that? 😉 

[MarkFeld]

On 1/15/2022 at 4:12 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

🐓:  I wonder how he knew that?

Q.:  Intuitively, at that? 😉 

I don’t think one needs to be a dealer in order to know that.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/15/2022 at 4:58 AM, MarkFeld said:

I don’t think that applies here. Dealers are typically the much larger revenue sources for the grading companies and nothing has changed in that regard.

OK...how about maybe realizing they are capacity constrained and they don't mind "kicking out" some of the dealers who aren't that big in revenue terms and thus freeing up graders and other resources for their more lucrative dealers ?

[numisport]

So I suppose my Associate membership is going up as well ?

[MarkFeld]

On 1/15/2022 at 9:17 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

OK...how about maybe realizing they are capacity constrained and they don't mind "kicking out" some of the dealers who aren't that big in revenue terms and thus freeing up graders and other resources for their more lucrative dealers ?

Do you really think that would be good business? 

[numisport]

Since moderns and bullion coins rule the day now, It's gonna matter [as a dealer] what your business is.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/15/2022 at 12:14 PM, MarkFeld said:

Do you really think that would be good business? 

I don't know, that's why I'm asking. 

Mark, if 80% of their business comes from 20% of the dealers, then they may have to think about culling less-profitable submittees.  Especially if they are time and labor constrained.  

PCGS sports grading just basically STOPPED taking new grading orders for a year, I believe.

I don't claim to be an expert here, I'm just trying to think why they may have acted this way which mimics other business lines.

[Henri Charriere]

On 1/15/2022 at 10:08 AM, MarkFeld said:

I don’t think one needs to be a dealer in order to know that.

This is like Jeopardy. Let's just say you were quick on the draw. That possibility, dealers, after wading through replies posted by members before yours, just did not occur to me. You're a good sport!  👍   🐓 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Usual die polishing: correct grammer.

[Coinbuf]

I can see how this may rub some dealers the wrong way, just as the decision to eliminate PCGS coins from the registry a few years ago hit a sour note with many collectors.   But as I think about this it seems to be no big deal for any dealer that spend over $1300 a year.   That is right around the breakeven point where the %15 discount on grading fees covers the fee.   So yes for a dealer that spends less than that each year it may be a turnoff, but for those who do or spend more the 15% grading fee reduction will save them money over the year.   Easy to support a company that is saving you money.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Coinbuf

[RWB]

Regular use increases efficiency on the dealer end. Anyone doing only occasional submissions is doing it for temporary convenience, not as a regular service to customers or for cons they buy.

Edited January 16, 2022 by RWB

[Numismatic, A.A.S.]

On 1/15/2022 at 6:32 PM, Coinbuf said:

I can see how this may rub some dealers the wrong way, just as the decision to eliminate PCGS coins from the registry a few years ago hit a sour note with many collectors.   But as I think about this it seems to be no big deal for any dealer that spend over $1300 a year.   That is right around the breakeven point where the %15 discount on grading fees covers the fee.   So yes for a dealer that spends less than that each year it may be a turnoff, but for those who do or spend more the 15% grading fee reduction will save them money over the year.   Easy to support a company that is saving you money.

This is important and right on IMO..

Good Point!!

[gmarguli]

On 1/15/2022 at 7:17 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

OK...how about maybe realizing they are capacity constrained and they don't mind "kicking out" some of the dealers who aren't that big in revenue terms and thus freeing up graders and other resources for their more lucrative dealers ?

If this were the reason, they'd have gotten rid of collector submissions. I can't say that this is the same at NGC, but "another TPG" once told me that their collector submissions process much slower than dealers. Collectors submit far fewer coins per invoice and at cheaper tiers. They are also much more likely to have issues with their submissions than dealer submissions. 

 

On 1/15/2022 at 4:32 PM, Coinbuf said:

I can see how this may rub some dealers the wrong way, just as the decision to eliminate PCGS coins from the registry a few years ago hit a sour note with many collectors.   But as I think about this it seems to be no big deal for any dealer that spend over $1300 a year.   That is right around the breakeven point where the %15 discount on grading fees covers the fee.   So yes for a dealer that spends less than that each year it may be a turnoff, but for those who do or spend more the 15% grading fee reduction will save them money over the year.   Easy to support a company that is saving you money.

You do realize that dealers received this 15% discount already. I believe all the bullet points are already available to dealers. 

I personally feel that the TPGs are getting just a little too greedy. I don't begrudge any company from making the max profit they can, but when you feel like you're being nickeled and dimed, it's gets hard to support that company. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/17/2022 at 6:59 PM, gmarguli said:

If this were the reason, they'd have gotten rid of collector submissions. I can't say that this is the same at NGC, but "another TPG" once told me that their collector submissions process much slower than dealers. Collectors submit far fewer coins per invoice and at cheaper tiers. They are also much more likely to have issues with their submissions than dealer submissions. 

Collectors can/will wait.....I guess dealers can't since it's their livelihood.  Not so for (most) collectors.

On 1/17/2022 at 6:59 PM, gmarguli said:

I personally feel that the TPGs are getting just a little too greedy. I don't begrudge any company from making the max profit they can, but when you feel like you're being nickeled and dimed, it's gets hard to support that company. 

Don't forget inflation...it's coming back like the 1970's.   Prices of my favorite Chinese takeouts are up 20-40% in a year or so.

Ah inflation...if it's back, can "Charlies Angels"...."Starsky & Hutch"...."Happy Days"....."Three's Company"....and all the rest not be too far behind ? 

[Coinbuf]

On 1/17/2022 at 4:59 PM, gmarguli said:

 

You do realize that dealers received this 15% discount already. I believe all the bullet points are already available to dealers. 

I personally feel that the TPGs are getting just a little too greedy. I don't begrudge any company from making the max profit they can, but when you feel like you're being nickeled and dimed, it's gets hard to support that company. 

No I'm not a dealer and therefor I have no idea of the cost structure that dealers receive vs collectors.

[VKurtB]

On 1/15/2022 at 9:36 AM, numisport said:

So I suppose my Associate membership is going up as well ?

Why would you assume that?

[VKurtB]

On 1/17/2022 at 5:59 PM, gmarguli said:

If this were the reason, they'd have gotten rid of collector submissions. I can't say that this is the same at NGC, but "another TPG" once told me that their collector submissions process much slower than dealers. Collectors submit far fewer coins per invoice and at cheaper tiers. They are also much more likely to have issues with their submissions than dealer submissions. 

 

You do realize that dealers received this 15% discount already. I believe all the bullet points are already available to dealers. 

I personally feel that the TPGs are getting just a little too greedy. I don't begrudge any company from making the max profit they can, but when you feel like you're being nickeled and dimed, it's gets hard to support that company. 

I won’t disagree about greed generally, however EVERY form I have EVER submitted to NGC has been complete, without error, and in need of no corrections or additions. On one coin I was offered conservation and I consented. How many dealers can claim that? I am a collector, strictly so. 

[MarkFeld]

On 1/17/2022 at 8:47 PM, VKurtB said:

I won’t disagree about greed generally, however EVERY form I have EVER submitted to NGC has been complete, without error, and in need of no corrections or additions. On one coin I was offered conservation and I consented. How many dealers can claim that? I am a collector, strictly so. 

You might be an exception. But even if you’re not, dealers still tend to be much larger submitters than collectors. 

[VKurtB]

On 1/18/2022 at 4:56 AM, MarkFeld said:

You might be an exception. But even if you’re not, dealers still tend to be much larger submitters than collectors. 

Here’s the key, Mark. I have always been “all about the accuracy”. It’s a personality trait. You can even say it’s dangerously close to being a fetish with me. I already DO pay an annual fee. I’m at the level just below elite. I think it’s $149 a year. And I get no stinking 15% off either. Whine all you want. Dealers can just bite me. 

[Woods020]

Do dealer submissions get the same turnaround times as all other submissions? I always assumed they get the exact same treatment, but I am curious if I am wrong. 

[gmarguli]

On 1/18/2022 at 8:27 AM, Woods020 said:

Do dealer submissions get the same turnaround times as all other submissions? I always assumed they get the exact same treatment, but I am curious if I am wrong. 

I've been told that as a whole they do. 

[VKurtB]

I have always heard it was FIFO, accounting for tier choice. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by VKurtB

[LNCS]

Got an email that submission prices are going up too next month. Wonder if my order will be in the system by then? They have had the package for more than a week now, but seem to be 2 months behind on opening them.

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 1/18/2022 at 1:44 PM, LNCS said:

Got an email that submission prices are going up too next month.

Ditto. Looks like a $1 increase, per coin, for Modern and Economy, then $2 per for Specialty Gold and Standard. The other tiers look to have remained the same.

Edit: https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/9688/ngc-2022-price-changes/

Edited January 18, 2022 by Fenntucky Mike

[GoldFinger1969]

Can anybody give me an approximation -- for either NGC or PCGS -- what it would cost per coin to send them in for TPG certification ? 

1....I assume it goes up as the value of the coins goes up, right ?

2....If you are a member you get a cheaper price than if you just send in without membership, right ?

3....If you send in alot of coins (membership or non-membership), I assume the price goes down all other things like value of coins the same ?

4....Assume membership....I send in a Morgan worth $150, a Saint worth $2,500 and a MCMVII HR worth $15,000 for grading -- what can I expect to pay for each of those (ballpark estimates) ?

As you can probably tell, no, I have never sent in a coin for grading.