French 20-franc gold rooster 1 1

[J P M]

On 10/21/2023 at 12:19 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Primer for Newbies on Roosters:

https://learn.apmex.com/learning-guide/the-20-franc-gold-rooster/

So that article is saying that roosters are not as rare as hens teeth. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by J P M

[GoldFinger1969]

French Gold Habits:  May have posted this elsewhere but after stopping the Rooster production with WW I in 1914, they were never restarted again until the re-strikes decades later.

“As people across Europe became distrustful of paper money, they began hoarding. They hoarded out of fear of devaluation and fear of war.”2 France, the second largest central bank holder of gold after the United States, refused to strike or release gold coin for circulation after the war. According to a 1930 report in the Wall Street Journal: 

        [The] Finance Minister stated that an issue of gold coin is not contemplated as the coins would be hoarded.

By the end of 1931 European speculators and gold hoarders were looking for additional avenues to profit from international currency turmoil. With French citizens and others demanding to buy gold in small quantities for personal hoards, and no domestic gold coin available, the obvious solution was to import U.S. coins.  The first publicity about private exports for hoarding was a small article in the Wall Street Journal on February 1, 1932:

"Foreigners have been withdrawing American gold coins at the rate of approximately $5,000,000 weekly in the last few weeks, the largest      shipments being made to France and Holland. Those transactions are handled by banks who charge a premium on the business. This gold    movement is not entirely reflected in the statements of the New York Federal Reserve Bank.  The foreign recipients, mostly banks, are selling the coins, also at a premium, for hoarding purposes, since gold coin in European countries is not easily available."

The U.S. coins were not only of recognized purity standards, but were freely available from banks sometimes without a fee.

The American banks are the only ones in the world outside of South Africa which freely furnish gold coin. Even in France, where the gold standard is strongly entrenched, the banks decline to issue gold in small amounts. The French banks will, however, issue gold bars on demand, but these bars, weighing 25 pounds and costing several thousand dollars, are too costly and too unwieldy to support the newly created business of profiteering in gold currency.

As a result…the foreign vendors of coins have turned to the United States as their sole source of supply.

Edited October 21, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

Blast from the Past!

🐓:  What's the indefatigable roostermeister have to say about all this?

Q.A.:  No problem.  Watch me dispose of this with my characteristic aplomb. To begin with, APMEX is a bullion concern not unlike that guy who showcased his cache recently on another channel all piled up on pallets. Two noteworthy giveaways: a). the use of the word "random" which is not unlike an offer to sell you something from an "unsearched" cauldron, and b). an historical reference to "Liberte  Equalite Fraternite," an inscription which appears solely on the Restrikes, which are plentiful in Mint State grades. But what about the Originals which comprise fully one-half of the Rooster run and are inscribed with a different inscription: [God protect France]?  They are conveniently overlooked by APMEX. (The analogy of Roosters to an obscure 2-Ducat Czech coin which is date scarce to begin with is pointless.) Over 100 million Roosters were minted. If they were so "plentiful," the vast majority of sets on any Set Registry would reflect that fact, but they presently do not.  Gold has risen considerably since the link provided by GF1969 was written. Sadly, that may be the saving grace of collectors who dove in and quickly realized they were in over their heads.  Takeaway:  Original Roosters (1899-1906) are difficult to find, period; Restrike Roosters  (1907-1914) are difficult to find in the highest MS grades...

🐓:   Stay tuned for yet another exciting and informative episode of:  Blast from the Past!

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Key Fact:  From 1918-1924, the Franc lost 80% of it's value.  In 1926, they put in place financial and budgetary austerity measures that helped the Franc rise and attracted gold into the country (for the central bank, not the French citizens ).

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/22/2023 at 8:05 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Key Fact:  From 1918-1924, the Franc lost 80% of it's value.  In 1926, they put in place financial and budgetary austerity measures that helped the Franc rise and attracted gold into the country (for the central bank, not the French citizens ).

 

⅗

 

F W I W:  One website, Numista, offers up a wealth of information to Gold Rooster collectors including one little tidbit which states the F20FrGR series was demonetized in 1928 which fits very neatly into your narrative of your Key Fact. Another is the fineness of the gold content which is usually 90%.  Numista, apparently sticklers for precision lists it as .9 [followed by 17 zeroes + 2.  🤣

Edited October 24, 2023 by Henri Charriere
(Correct spell-check)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/23/2023 at 7:18 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Numista, offers up a wealth of information to Gold Rooster collectors including one little tidbit which states the F20FrGR series was demonetized in 1928 which fits very neatly into your narrative of your Key Fact. 

So it was worth whatever weight in gold...but no longer official currency, like 20 Francs.  Incentive for citizenry to turn in their gold to the French central bank.

 

[Henri Charriere]

New Yorkers old enough to remember the memorable ad, "You don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's real Jewish rye bread," featuring a cross-section of people including an American Indian, et al is what came to mind when I viewed an eBay listing today for an 1906 NGC-certified Gold Rooster graded MS-63 for the outrageous and unconscionable price of $1,900., not including NYCs nearly 9% sales tax + shipping.

Well, dear members, you don't have to have any expertise in the series to know how to locate mintages and grades and corresponding current prices to realize the price being asked (you may submit your Own  Best Offer) is way out of line. Through my discerning eyes, I quickly reviewed the record.  The 1906 was the last of the Originals minted and by far and away the most common (and 2d most common when the Restrikes are included).

I never gave the matter much thought until the Great Zadok referred to the series correctly as "bullion" and cited the lofty premiums of 500% in the finest grades. The Gold Rooster contains almost a fifth of an ounce of gold and with gold hovering at just below $2,000/oz, we're looking at a melt price of not even $400.

I purchased an MS-64 example, one grade higher, certified, for $450. I can assure you gold was not trading at $500/oz. at the time (2019). Any original is hard to come by, no doubt about it. But to see a scam like this being foisted upon the public with the usual flattering descriptors serves to only reinforce my perception that unless you are willing to put in the necessary footwork, commonly referred to as "due diligence" I strongly suggest you be accompanied by a coin chaperone, or someone experienced enough to separate the solid stuff from the fluff.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Post-post die-polishing.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:02 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I viewed an eBay listing today for an 1906 NGC-certified Gold Rooster graded MS-63 for the outrageous and unconscionable price of $1,900., not including NYCs nearly 9% sales tax + shipping.

A rooster is just under 1/4 or 1/5th of an ounce, so about $400 in gold, I guess....that particular coin in MS-63 have much numismatic value ?

If Roosters are not widely available -- esp. on Ebay -- that could account for the huge ask, if there isn't much numismatic value.

[zadok]

On 10/23/2023 at 11:23 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

A rooster is just under 1/4 or 1/5th of an ounce, so about $400 in gold, I guess....that particular coin in MS-63 have much numismatic value ?

If Roosters are not widely available -- esp. on Ebay -- that could account for the huge ask, if there isn't much numismatic value.

...roosters r very available n usually r sold based on bullion rates, ampex will sell u all that u can carry away in a wheelbarrow...the numismatic value only comes into play in very specific grades n is differentiated 1899-1906 n 1907-1914, in the pre-restrike issues ('99-'06) the coins r still available but normally in the low to mid unc grades, i see literally dozens of 62-63 coins every month n pass on all of those unless under melt value, numismatically these r of added value, twice melt in the 64 range n triple/quadruple in the 65-66 range...the top pop coins for these years, currently 64-66 grades, r where the prices skew radically...there r a few years '01-'02 where the market is competitive n of course the one key date of 1900...as for the re-strike years, '07-'14, the only coins of investment value that matches the asking prices r those in 67 grades, 66 coins go begging...the 2 currently graded 68 coins fall into the "what ever the market will pay" category...personally, i only buy roosters if they r top pop coins n the prices r double/triple melt value range....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/24/2023 at 10:22 AM, zadok said:

...roosters r very available n usually r sold based on bullion rates, ampex will sell u all that u can carry away in a wheelbarrow...the numismatic value only comes into play in very specific grades n is differentiated 1899-1906 n 1907-1914, in the pre-restrike issues ('99-'06) the coins r still available but normally in the low to mid unc grades, i see literally dozens of 62-63 coins every month n pass on all of those unless under melt value, numismatically these r of added value, twice melt in the 64 range n triple/quadruple in the 65-66 range...the top pop coins for these years, currently 64-66 grades, r where the prices skew radically...there r a few years '01-'02 where the market is competitive n of course the one key date of 1900...as for the re-strike years, '07-'14, the only coins of investment value that matches the asking prices r those in 67 grades, 66 coins go begging...the 2 currently graded 68 coins fall into the "what ever the market will pay" category...personally, i only buy roosters if they r top pop coins n the prices r double/triple melt value range....

I think only sophisticated gold or coin buyers/collectors would be looking at Roosters....the casual buyer is thinking at most U.S. American Gold Eagles....then Maple Leafs or Pandas/Kruggerrands.

I never would have known of the coins except for HC/QA here.   And I've been on these forums for years.

[zadok]

On 10/24/2023 at 12:55 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think only sophisticated gold or coin buyers/collectors would be looking at Roosters....the casual buyer is thinking at most U.S. American Gold Eagles....then Maple Leafs or Pandas/Kruggerrands.

I never would have known of the coins except for HC/QA here.   And I've been on these forums for years.

...their r several gold issues that fall into the same boat (or coop if u prefer)...Netherlands 10G, Belgium 20F, GB sovereign, France 20F, Swiss 20F, Austrian 20F, Hungary 20F to name just a few...basically u can play with bullion n collect for free, assemble sets in unc grades for bullion prices n if want to invest just buy the top pops....

[Henri Charriere]

For the record... yesterday I regaled members on an item advertised on eBay for a flat $1,900., exclusive of sales tax and shipping costs.  

Today, simply for viewing the NGC-certified MS63 20-franc gold rooster, I was informed the seller had deducting a whopping 2% off his ridiculous selling price. [To fellow New Yorkers, that amounts to less than 2% of our sales tax. So now the selling price is $1,862.]

Moments ago, I checked MA-SHOPS listings and spotted the following which ought to put this matter in perspective:

For sale are each of the following 1906 gold roosters, all PCGS-certified, their respective grades and price in USD (exclusive of conversion fees from USD to euros).  You the reader can decide for yourself whether my assertion of exorbitant pricing is valid.

MS-62 - $471.22   MS-63- (unavailable)  MS-64 - 725.35. MS-65 - $947.74.

I steadfastly maintain an asking price of $1862., down in the past 24 hrs. from 1,900., is unwarranted.

 

[J P M]

On 10/24/2023 at 4:57 PM, Henri Charriere said:

For the record... yesterday I regaled members on an item advertised on eBay for a flat $1,900., exclusive of sales tax and shipping costs.  

Today, simply for viewing the NGC-certified MS63 20-franc gold rooster, I was informed the seller had deducting a whopping 2% off his ridiculous selling price. [To fellow New Yorkers, that amounts to less than 2% of our sales tax. So now the selling price is $1,862.]

Moments ago, I checked MA-SHOPS listings and spotted the following which ought to put this matter in perspective:

For sale are each of the following 1906 gold roosters, all PCGS-certified, their respective grades and price in USD (exclusive of conversion fees from USD to euros).  You the reader can decide for yourself whether my assertion of exorbitant pricing is valid.

MS-62 - $471.22   MS-63- (unavailable)  MS-64 - 725.35. MS-65 - $947.74.

I steadfastly maintain an asking price of $1862., down in the past 24 hrs. from 1,900., is unwarranted.

 

Anyone can ask whatever price they want to sell a item. The trick is finding a buyer to pay that price. I think many items are overpriced so I wont be buying any of those thank you.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/24/2023 at 1:13 PM, zadok said:

...their r several gold issues that fall into the same boat (or coop if u prefer)...Netherlands 10G, Belgium 20F, GB sovereign, France 20F, Swiss 20F, Austrian 20F, Hungary 20F to name just a few...basically u can play with bullion n collect for free, assemble sets in unc grades for bullion prices n if want to invest just buy the top pops....

I think what they all have in common is NONE were minted in the volumes of U.S. gold coins, esp. Double Eagles (Liberty's and Saints)....and none survived to the extent those U.S. coins did, right ?

Does anybody know if from 1850-1933 any country REGULARLY struck a 1 ounce gold coin comparable to our DEs ?  I don't think so -- Britain ?

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/25/2023 at 4:12 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think what they all have in common is NONE were minted in the volumes of U.S. gold coins, esp. Double Eagles (Liberty's and Saints)....and none survived to the extent those U.S. coins did, right ?

Does anybody know if from 1850-1933 any country REGULARLY struck a 1 ounce gold coin comparable to our DEs ?  I don't think so -- Britain ?

I don't think so, but then again none of those comparatively small countries boasted the population or development during the onset of the Industrial Revolution that would justify continual mintage of large denomination gold coins.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/24/2023 at 7:19 PM, J P M said:

Anyone can ask whatever price they want to sell a item. The trick is finding a buyer to pay that price.  

And when that insufficiently_informed buyer decides to sell, then what?  We're talking 3- to 4-X the fair market value of an essentially common coin.  Unless another member objects strenuously, I am going to report this price gouging attempt now that eBay has restored the space to cite the specifics of what a potential buyer wishes to bring to their attention.  I am also going to contact the seller.   

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/25/2023 at 4:23 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I don't think so, but then again none of those comparatively small countries boasted the population or development during the onset of the Industrial Revolution that would justify continual mintage of large denomination gold coins.

Excellent point.  Britain was the world's defacto banker and London the financial center so I suspect their coins (i.e., sovereigns, Crowns) were struck in good numbers, supplied with gold from all over the British Empire.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/25/2023 at 4:44 PM, Henri Charriere said:

And when that insufficiently_informed buyer decides to sell, then what?  We're talking 3- to 4-X the fair market value of an essentially common coin.  Unless another member objects strenuously, I am going to report this price gouging attempt now that eBay has restored the space to cite the specifics of what a potential buyer wishes to bring to their attention.  I am also going to contact the seller.   

 

Well, without a single objection from any chat board member, I did the unthinkable:  I not only contacted the seller. I confronted him, asking him point-blank: "....what is the Fair Market Value of this item?"  With 12 hours remaining on the clock, I received a sugary reply structured more to convince eBay that the sellers -- while keeping the listing intact -- would convene a dealer's sit-down, post-haste, to review the price -- $1900. for a 1906 20-franc gold rooster NGC-certified at MS-63: an unwarranted sum -- grade- and census-wise -- and get back to me.

But the seller did what any true certified price-gouger would do: he simply sat back, and let the remaining grains of sand run out of the week-long sand clock.  And the 1906 gold rooster? It was apparently re-listed as a fresh new item -- at the same unreasonable price.  Now, if I raise the matter again (which I intend to do perhaps regularly, as the mood moves me) the seller with claim he's being harassed or worse, stalked.

Let it never be said I don't have the collectors' best interest at heart.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Routine die polishing.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/27/2023 at 8:30 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Well, without a single objection from any chat board member, I did the unthinkable:  I not only contacted the seller. I confronted him, asking him point-blank: "....what is the Fair Market Value of this item?"  With 12 hours remaining on the clock, I received a sugary reply structured more to convince eBay that the sellers -- while keeping the listing intact -- would convene a dealer's sit-down, post-haste, to review the price -- $1900. for a 1906 20-franc gold rooster NGC-certified at MS-63: an unwarranted sum -- grade- and census-wise -- and get back to me. But the seller did what any true certified price-gouger would do: he simply sat back, and let the remaining grains of sand run out of the week-long sand clock.  And the 1906 gold rooster? It was apparently re-listed as a fresh new item -- at the same unreasonable price.  

With Google and the Internet, quite frankly asking "what is the fair price for an MS-63 1906 20 Franc Rooster ?" should give people a good number to work off of that is nowhere near $1,900. 

I see high prices all the time -- but on the order of 20-25%% or so -- on GC for Saints.

[Henri Charriere]

FRANCE 20-FRANC [GOLD ROOSTER - KM: 857]

$500.00

-NGC WORLD COIN PRICE GUIDE, as of this writing.

NOT $600, $700, $800, $900, $1000, $1100, $1200, $1300, $1400, $1500, $1600, $1700, $1800 or $1825, or $1850, or $1875.

The figure given by the Price Guide is in accord with current MA-SHOP listings and prices provided in this thread last Tuesday:

MS62 - $472.22

[MS63 - $500.00]

MS64 - $725.35

MS-65 - 947.74

 

[GoldFinger1969]

HC, what happens to the price at MS-66 or MS-67 -- huge jump ?  Or no coins with those grades ?

[zadok]

On 10/28/2023 at 12:13 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

HC, what happens to the price at MS-66 or MS-67 -- huge jump ?  Or no coins with those grades ?

...just to satisfy ur curiosity, ur supposition of worth, +20-25%, for a '06 ms63 rooster is probably a bit low, realistically the coin should sell in the $700-$800 range n a really choice example with strong eye appeal mite bring $900...ive seen some offered at $1100-$1300 with no takers...below that grade the few collectors of the series will just wait until they find a better example or mite buy one at melt value if they have discretionary funds...at the ms65 level there would be strong competition n the coin if attractive would easily bring in excess of $1000...currently ms66 would be a top pop coin n could bring in excess of double that of a ms65 coin...no ms67 coins have been certified as of now, they could easily exist but no one knows until candidates r submitted...as discussed before there r several mini hoards of these bullion coins sitting around, but no dealer is going to submit 30-40 coins just hoping to get one gem as there r no buyers for the rest...the asking price for the referenced coin on ebay is excessive n will not sell anywhere near that price...ebay does not place restrictions on asking prices for their listed items, excessive asking prices still generate listing fees n do not violate any ebay policy...i personally track top pop coins n those one grade below in several of these bullion series n invest accordingly....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/28/2023 at 3:04 PM, zadok said:

...just to satisfy ur curiosity, ur supposition of worth, +20-25%, for a '06 ms63 rooster is probably a bit low, realistically the coin should sell in the $700-$800 range n a really choice example with strong eye appeal mite bring $900...ive seen some offered at $1100-$1300 with no takers...below that grade the few collectors of the series will just wait until they find a better example or mite buy one at melt value if they have discretionary funds...at the ms65 level there would be strong competition n the coin if attractive would easily bring in excess of $1000...currently ms66 would be a top pop coin n could bring in excess of double that of a ms65 coin...no ms67 coins have been certified as of now, they could easily exist but no one knows until candidates r submitted...as discussed before there r several mini hoards of these bullion coins sitting around, but no dealer is going to submit 30-40 coins just hoping to get one gem as there r no buyers for the rest...the asking price for the referenced coin on ebay is excessive n will not sell anywhere near that price...ebay does not place restrictions on asking prices for their listed items, excessive asking prices still generate listing fees n do not violate any ebay policy...i personally track top pop coins n those one grade below in several of these bullion series 

This is one of the finest recitations on the state of the series published to date.

[zadok]

On 10/28/2023 at 8:04 PM, Henri Charriere said:

This is one of the finest recitations on the state of the series published to date.

...this is just a discussion of one date, each date has its own little wrinkles but many r similar...trying to keep the roosters out of the hen house....

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/28/2023 at 3:04 PM, zadok said:

...just to satisfy ur curiosity, ur supposition of worth, +20-25%, for a '06 ms63 rooster is probably a bit low, realistically the coin should sell in the $700-$800 range n a really choice example with strong eye appeal mite bring $900...ive seen some offered at $1100-$1300 with no takers...below that grade the few collectors of the series will just wait until they find a better example or mite buy one at melt value if they have discretionary funds...at the ms65 level there would be strong competition n the coin if attractive would easily bring in excess of $1000...currently ms66 would be a top pop coin n could bring in excess of double that of a ms65 coin...no ms67 coins have been certified as of now, they could easily exist but no one knows until candidates r submitted...as discussed before there r several mini hoards of these bullion coins sitting around, but no dealer is going to submit 30-40 coins just hoping to get one gem as there r no buyers for the rest...the asking price for the referenced coin on ebay is excessive n will not sell anywhere near that price...ebay does not place restrictions on asking prices for's their listed items, excessive asking prices still generate listing fees n do not violate any ebay policy...i personally track top pop coins n those one grade below in several of these bullion series n invest accordingly....

Note:  Following is my original response which had been withheld by Moderation for review pending clearance for posting...

The two lowest top pops in the series, for both top grading services, are the 1901 and 1902 (Originals) with nothing graded finer than MS-64. That constitutes the floor, and core, of my set registry ATS.

The Great Zadok's overall assessment is spot on. One need only look to Etsy to conclude there is no such thing as overpriced goods. Notably, the NGC World Coin price guide shrinks from the skirmishing that occurs at the MS66 grade, and higher, and therefore offers no ballpark figures.  I have never paid 2K for any Gold Rooster, but at least one collector has according to HA records: $2,280 for a 1909 PCGS-certified as MS67 four years ago. 

As various hoards were discovered abroad, dealers would bid on them and bring in an expert on the series who would cherry-pick the examples that held the greatest promise.

If spot gold continues on its hopefully inexorable rise, pricing will rise accordingly and it will presumably become more profitable to take chances with certifying higher grade-looking coins.

Do some MS-67's command twice the price of their MS-66 counterparts?  Indubitably.  But the MS-68's, due to their uniqueness, will ultimately bring in the highest prices ever seen. 

It is my feeling, having monitored Gold Rooster developments exclusively for nearly 5 years, that many coin emporiums have reverted to the FDC scale with the result being it is up to the individual collector to make the decision as to determine their precise MS status.

The finest possible graded set ATS presently is rated 67.375.  My set squeaks in at 65.906. My wish is to breach the MS66 barrier with one, two or three more coins. 🐓 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/29/2023 at 12:18 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I have never paid 2K for any Gold Rooster, but at least one collector has according to HA records: $2,280 for a 1909 PCGS-certified as MS67 four years ago. 

What is the highest price ever paid for ANY Rooster ?  How big a dropoff for the next few highest in the series after the ATH price ?

[zadok]

On 10/29/2023 at 2:52 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What is the highest price ever paid for ANY Rooster ?  How big a dropoff for the next few highest in the series after the ATH price ?

...not a question that can be answered...the prices paid for the 68 coins were not made public...those individual higher grade coins sold on ebay n other forums r not necessarily tracked...obviously none of the privately traded coin prices r available...the only recorded prices would be those listed in previous auction results on HA or SB auction sites or a few others that monitor n provide those figures....

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/29/2023 at 4:59 PM, zadok said:

...not a question that can be answered...

I agree unequivocally and I have consulted a number of obscure sources.  A distinction must be made between "circulation" strikes and what I refer to as "specialty" strikes, which includes various patterns, essai piedforts and those 9,443 matte proofs all dated 1900.

Amongst circulation strikes, all fall with the range $1K to $2K. Amongst the specialty coins, none I am aware of exceeded Liberty Coin's [non-auction] sale price of $24,400 for a 1900 PF-67 which languished on eBay for over a year before being either sold or withdrawn from sale a few years back.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:02 PM, Henri Charriere said:

"You don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's real Jewish rye bread,"

Haven't been this relieved to know that since I found out the real price of the $100,000 bar wasn't $100,000 !! 

Besides, where the hell am I supposed to get one of those Woodrow Wilson $100,000 bills to insert into the vending machine anyway ?  

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/5/2020 at 4:21 PM, cowbaby said:

'Maybe there remains a shred of honest, accurate grading for some of the more common gold coins? If the least marked-up piece is accurately graded MS-65, then so be it.' 

That is YOUR opinion which you are certainly entitled to. I just don't happen to share it.

 

To me it has more to do with what a grader thinks of the coin overall. Of course I think they try to give an honest assessment, its just honesty has less to do with it imo. 

I know the real reason why..But for the sake of argument I won't go into it....

VIEWER DISCRETION IS ADVISED!... old thread (07/05/20) critiqued.

A Guide to selected excerpts: The first paragraph contains the first reply to the first question posed in my first post on a topic posted after becoming a member.  Its author was none other than the Grand Master, RWB. Some 3 years later, no "Original," [1899-1906] Gold Rooster has been graded MS-67 by any TPGS and RWB's stance presumably remains unchanged. (The status of top-tier "Restrike" [1907-1914] coins, particularly at NGC, has changed exponentially.)

The second paragraph contains the retort of a member who unfortunately hasn't been heard from in awhile.

The third and final paragraph, and more particularly its tantalizing reply, remains shrouded in mystery. I have from time to time asked Cowboy to elaborate on "the real reason why", via PM, to no avail.

I have two theories spurred by the two certifications of restrikes graded MS-68 ATS.  They occurred in a vacuum without advance public notice of availability or subsequent public notice of certification, beyond a census.  Their swift cross-grading at NGC suggests the owner(s) is a collector, as opposed to a dealer.  The Great Zadok's prognostication that they will not appear on any Set Registry and may not surface again, if ever, remains true.  My theory as regarding the top-tier Gold Rooster certification juggernaut ATS I attribute -- without a shred of evidence to support my claim, to my belief that, of the various gold hoards uncovered in Europe recently, one was snapped up by a conglomerate of numismatist-investors who recognized their quality as limited circulation pieces that would make them promising candidates for certification. (I would be curious to know whether they were certified overseas, or state-side.