French 20-franc gold rooster 1 1

[zadok]

On 12/22/2021 at 7:44 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Update

No sign of either the 1908 or 1912 NGC-graded MS-68's.

But somewhat disconcerting, the population of Mint State Roosters has exploded.  Almost 400 now in dozens of sets. PCGS continues to maintain its competive edge on the "re-strike" issues (1907-1914) while dominating the "originals" (1899-1914)  Anyone whose desire is to complete a set must be prepared to acquire examples from Europe, at higher prices -- or wait, interminably.

To date, the number of people who've broached the subject of gold 🐓 with me directly, exclusive of dealers, can be counted on one hand.

One more thing... being wholly unfamiliar with leading economic indicators and FMV's, I can only guess prices will be orchestrated by rising certifications checked by the ups and downs of gold spot, and moderated with the discovery of a hitherto unknown French gold hoard factored in.

I am a simple person with simple tastes.  If I should win tonite's Powerball drawing, my entire holdings will go to the village in France that stuck up for Maurice the Rooster, now deceased, at my expense. Otherwise, I will wait until gold breaches a certain level, and then sell. Either way, it will give me an unprecedented opportunity with which to re-acquaint myself with my wife and remind myself I am married and have obligations.    🐓 

...i would not hold my breath waiting for the 2 roosters to return to the coop...in all likelihood those coins were purchased by a non-rooster collector, their primary qualification is that they r simply ms68 certified coins...its likely they were purchased for long term investment value...the next time they will appear will be when offered for resale in a high visibility auction or there is the possibility that a rooster collector mite track them down n purchase for a registry set....nothing would indicate that they will appear on the market again just because of an increase in gold bullion prices, those increases r simply not significant enuf to generate resale...for the most part roosters r still regarded by the collecting fraternity as bullion coins n the collector base just isnt strong enuf to create a gigantic premium for those coins...the buyer of those coins has no incentive to disclose their whereabouts n most likely is not a collector but an investor...as an example, i am a very diversified collector but still on occasion purchase finest known coins in areas that i do not collect just for long term investment, i have no need to publicize my ownership n should a higher graded coin appear on the market i normally then sell off the previously finest known examples because their only investment quality disappeared when they became second finest knowns....

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/22/2021 at 10:37 PM, zadok said:

....[a]n[d] should a higher graded coin appear on the market i normally then sell off the previously finest known examples because their only investment quality disappeared when they became second finest knowns....

Always a pleasure to hear from you, but if I were to follow your example, particularly in light of the latest [year-end] census, you would increase my workload exponentially. For example, 1911 is the second scarcest date in the series. N has 55 pegged at MS-66; P has certified over twice as many at the same grade. Hard to believe sixteen coins could occupy so much of my time. [If you are looking for the "sad" button, there isn't any. I have not overexaggerated anything I have said regarding moderation.]

[zadok]

On 12/22/2021 at 10:55 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Always a pleasure to hear from you, but if I were to follow your example, particularly in light of the latest [year-end] census, you would increase my workload exponentially. For example, 1911 is the second scarcest date in the series. N has 55 pegged at MS-66; P has certified over twice as many at the same grade. Hard to believe sixteen coins could occupy so much of my time. [If you are looking for the "sad" button, there isn't any. I have not overexaggerated anything I have said regarding moderation.]

no its still there....

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/22/2021 at 11:44 PM, zadok said:

no its still there....

Well... I'll be!  Must be the Christmas spirit!

[Henri Charriere]

Six months, no further comments on gold Roosters...  why?  I received yet another series of notifications from France and Germany, the last one a clarion call: 1900 20-franc MS-65! I stared in disbelief. This is the rarest in the Rooster series! I quickly scanned the column providing selling prices and thought they looked too low--way too low, and upon closer scrutiny realized why. There are roughly a dozen different series in the French 20-franc series, the Rooster being last. The notification was for the Angel series (the one that preceded Roosters) and I was so annoyed at these persistent false alarms which require I drop everything and act quickly that I disabled preferences--across the board. "I am retired," I muttered to myself.

(Aside: The night before, fed up with endless repeats and a string of pop-up commercials, I disabled my cable TV and turned in all the equipment the following morning. The sales clerk made two statements which only validated my decision to remove this albatross from my neck: 1- the company was very wealthy, and 2- "You realize your wife's cell bill will go up."  This solidified my resolve. Good riddance! When I told a friend, he asked: "You still have cable?"  Not anymore.)

Just now, today, I was informed by NGC that premium memberships are "50% off". C'est la vie.

[VKurtB]

It’s not a series I follow, but were Angels and Roosters running concurrently?

[Henri Charriere]

No, they were not. (They used to list all issues of 20-franc coins, but apparently they've dispensed with it).

Herewith the last three...

G20F, 1899-1914 (Rooster) Circulation Issue, 46 sets on NGC Set Registry;

G20F, 1871-1898 Genie (Angel) Circulation Issue, 43 sets/NGC;

G20F, 1852-1870 (Napoleon III) Circulation Issue, 16 sets/NGC.

(If I can locate the complete list of at least 11 issues, I will provide it.

[GoldFinger1969]

Can I get Rooster Basics 101....when were they issued ?  In what size (ounces or fractions of an ounce of gold) ?  Mintage by year (approximate) ?

As an example, for Saints....I would say:  1907-32....1 ounce coins only.....mintage ranged from a few hundred thousand to a few million....annual survivors 400,000 and below, usually a few thousand.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/23/2022 at 5:39 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Can I get Rooster Basics 101....when were they issued ?  In what size (ounces or fractions of an ounce of gold) ?  Mintage by year (approximate) ?

As an example, for Saints....I would say:  1907-32....1 ounce coins only.....mintage ranged from a few hundred thousand to a few million....annual survivors 400,000 and below, usually a few thousand.

The entire French 20-franc gold rooster 🐓 run was officially minted from 1899 to 1914.  They are small: 21 mm in diameter and contain less than a fifth ounce (0.18 oz.) of gold. Mintages (roughly):

1.  1899 -  1.5 million (m)
2.  1900 -  0.615 m (the rarest)
3.   1901 -  2.6 m
4.   1902 -  2.4 m
5.   1903 -  4.4 m
6.   1904 -  7.7 m
7.   1905 -   9.1 m
8.   1906 - 14.6 m
9.    1907- 17.7 m (highest mintage)
10.    1908 -   6.7 m
11.    1909 -   9.6 m
12.    1910 -   5.77 m
13.    1911 -   5.34 m (rarest "restrike")
14.    1912 - 10.33 m
15.    1913 - 12.16 m
16.    1914 -   6.51 m

Total:  117.45 m, a small fraction of which have been certified and graded. Members @zadokand @VKurtB correctly surmised that this is because they are bullion coins which were not struck for circulation. A sort of "poor man's" gold which many countries minted. (I suspect the South African Kruegerrand popularized the higher 1-ounce size, beginning in the late 1960's.)

The first eight are known as the "Originals" struck on the dates as indicated.

The second eight are known as "Restrikes" struck in the 1920's--and some in the 1950's.

There are patterns, proofs, i.e., 9,443 in 1900--and even varieties cited by a number of myriad sources, but almost never acknowledged. 

There are 50+ set registrants and, to my knowledge, I am the only collector who has spoken openly of them.

Advice:. this may sound odd coming from me, but I would not encourage you to collect them because they have become increasingly more difficult to locate in the only area in which collecting them makes any sense: Mint State grades. You will become stuck at the divide between the earlier and later ones. Restrikes are do-able, and plenty of set registrants have compiled "short sets." But the Originals are a problem. I never regarded the acquisition of an Original anything other than payment of a ransom and I have vowed, after all the trouble of getting one, that they will never go back to Europe; I don't care how high the offer is. @RWB whose comment came in first after my initial post, presciently observed "not enough Roosters have been submitted" in explaining why so few of the 117+ m Roosters remain raw. 

In deference to the Moderators,  and preserving @ Oldhoopster's band-width for substantive discussions, I will end here.

 

 

 

 

[VKurtB]

On 6/23/2022 at 8:28 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

The entire French 20-franc gold rooster 🐓 run was officially minted from 1899 to 1914.  They are small: 21 mm in diameter and contain less than a fifth ounce (0.18 oz.) of gold. Mintages (roughly):

1.  1899 -  1.5 million (m)
2.  1900 -  0.615 m (the rarest)
3.   1901 -  2.6 m
4.   1902 -  2.4 m
5.   1903 -  4.4 m
6.   1904 -  7.7 m
7.   1905 -   9.1 m
8.   1906 - 14.6 m
9.    1907- 17.7 m (highest mintage)
10.    1908 -   6.7 m
11.    1909 -   9.6 m
12.    1910 -   5.77 m
13.    1911 -   5.34 m (rarest "restrike")
14.    1912 - 10.33 m
15.    1913 - 12.16 m
16.    1914 -   6.51 m

Total:  117.45 m, a small fraction of which have been certified and graded. Members @zadokand @VKurtB correctly surmised that this is because they are bullion coins which were not struck for circulation. A sort of "poor man's" gold which many countries minted. (I suspect the South African Kruegerrand popularized the higher 1-ounce size, beginning in the late 1960's.)

The first eight are known as the "Originals" struck on the dates as indicated.

The second eight are known as "Restrikes" struck in the 1920's--and some in the 1950's.

There are patterns, proofs, i.e., 9,443 in 1900--and even varieties cited by a number of myriad sources, but almost never acknowledged. 

There are 50+ set registrants and, to my knowledge, I am the only collector who has spoken openly of them.

Advice:. this may sound odd coming from me, but I would not encourage you to collect them because they have become increasingly more difficult to locate in the only area in which collecting them makes any sense: Mint State grades. You will become stuck at the divide between the earlier and later ones. Restrikes are do-able, and plenty of set registrants have compiled "short sets." But the Originals are a problem. I never regarded the acquisition of an Original anything other than payment of a ransom and I have vowed, after all the trouble of getting one, that they will never go back to Europe; I don't care how high the offer is. @RWB whose comment came in first after my initial post, presciently observed "not enough Roosters have been submitted" in explaining why so few of the 117+ m Roosters remain raw. 

In deference to the Moderators,  and preserving @ Oldhoopster's band-width for substantive discussions, I will end here.

 

 

 

 

That’s what the rest of the world considers a “normal size” gold coin. Larger was rarely seen. 

[Henri Charriere]

COMPARING THE NGC CENSUS FOR THIS PAST APRIL WITH THE CURRENT ONE, SOME 90 DAYS LATER - RESTRIKES 1907- 1914, [MOVEMENT FOR THE "ORIGINALS," 1899-1906, HAS BEEN GLACIAL AT OTHER GRADES, BUT IS OF NO MOMENT AT MS66, e.g. 1899 - 1, 1900-1905 - 0, 1906 - 1]

APRIL 2022 / JULY 2022

1907 MS66  67 / 64  -  3

1909      "      42 / 76  + 34

1910      "      89 /100 + 11

1911       "      48 /  57 +  9

1912        "     50 / 55  +  5

1913        "     44 / 57 + 13

1914        "     56 /102 + 46

Note:  I cannot account for the "defections" reflected in 1907, the most common year in the entire series, and continue to see neither hair no hide of the first two gold Roosters certified at P- at MS68 and quickly cross-graded at N- at MS68.  The recent discussion on the "Top Collections" thread prompted me to re-visit the census to ascertain why a complete collection of French 20-franc gold roosters, straight-graded MS66, is not possible, as of this writing.

I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate fellow collector @ jfoster1 on achieving #1 rank status with his, "still a work in progress" set, J. D. Foster, which promises to be not only the current and all-time finest collection, but the very BEST French Set ever compiled.  

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:27 PM, VKurtB said:

It’s not a series I follow, but were Angels and Roosters running concurrently?

Unbeknownst to me, I do not collect "Genie" (Angel) so know nothing about them, or the nine other 20-franc gold coin types preceding them in the series, your simple query set off a firestorm in my mind which resulted in my pulling the plug on Roosters, for good.

So what happened? I saved the final two notifications from MA-SHOPS, and re-examined them carefully.

The first was the one that set off a false alarm:  "New items matching your search query 20 Francs Gold 1900 MS 65 category Coins + Banknotes have been found."

Then came the listing for Genie. I did not pick up on that right away. What caught my eye were the ridiculously low prices, easily half of what a 1900 Rooster in MS 65 ought to cost. Then, with that banner heading 20 Francs Gold 1900 MS 65 staring me in the face, as set forth in "second-coming"-type, I spotted the series name, Genie.  Really? That was news to me!  I thought the transition was smooth: Analogy:  Franklin Halves end in 1963; Kennedy's pick up in 1964. Then, I investigated the matter further with your single line query and unsubscribed immediately.  I received a notice from a representative, acknowledging the request accompanied by yet another, "New items matching your query" overture which I truly found galling...

France 20 Francs 1912 Not Applicable Coin, Marianne, PCGS, Gold, KM:857 MS(65-70).  (Bold Emphasis mine.)

Now that's chutzpah!  As a distinguished member (who unbeknownst to me had witnessed the RR2020 Donnybrook first-hand) replied to me, in substance recently, I have placed your comment in the appropriate file.

I tell you, unabashedly, Henny Youngman-style: "I love this crowd!"  There is nothing like this Forum anywhere else!  

Edited July 9, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Routine die polishing: enhance readability.

[GoldFinger1969]

LET ME IN:  Cognizant that Groucho Marx once said he'd refuse to join any club that would have him as a member, I have officially taken the plunge into the Rooster club !

I want to thank QA for his excellent posts on these little-known gold coins (to us Americans, at least , excepting of course him !!) as well as some additional special help in obtaining this beaut.  Thanks, QA! 

I'll have additional commentary and information once I figure out what the hell I am talking about.  In the meantime, I'm sure QA will be able keep this thread going if others want to chime in.

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[CoinJockey73]

On 8/29/2022 at 1:54 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

LET ME IN:  Cognizant that Groucho Marx once said he'd refuse to join any club that would have him as a member, I have officially taken the plunge into the Rooster club !

I want to thank QA for his excellent posts on these little-known gold coins (to us Americans, at least , excepting of course him !!) as well as some additional special help in obtaining this beaut.  Thanks, QA! 

I'll have additional commentary and information once I figure out what the hell I am talking about.  In the meantime, I'm sure QA will be able keep this thread going if others want to chime in.

 

Congrats! Awesome! 

[CoinJockey73]

This thread is great! 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 8/29/2022 at 1:54 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I have officially taken the plunge into the Rooster club !

Congrats GF, she's a beaut! 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:38 AM, CoinJockey73 said:

This thread is great! 

All credit to the great QA !!  

On 8/29/2022 at 6:11 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Congrats GF, she's a beaut! 

Thanks Mike, I'm poking around the internet finding out more about these beautiful coins.  For instance, I just read WHY the coins have roosters....dates back to their Gallic past. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

Man I love this place.  Thanks for the tributes, guys!  

[Henri Charriere]

Herewith, an authorized sneak peek of the Threadmaster's obsessive compulsion, at the height of his acquisition craze:

[CoinJockey73]

On 9/2/2022 at 5:44 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Herewith, an authorized sneak peek of the Threadmaster's obsessive compulsion, at the height of his acquisition craze:

Awesome, but a note pad for 99 cents (there is no cent sign anymore, can you imagine?)? Where can i find one? My W quarter notes look just like that. Great minds think alike. 

[Henri Charriere]

@CoinJockey73:

Come to think of it, and I want to be fair about this, I believe these small yellow legal pads, purchased years ago, were the last items I remember buying from a 99-cent store, for just 99-cents. The rapid proliferation of C-19 made running these stores, economically unfeasible, and most folded or changed their signage. I share my notes. I am just a simple person. The Myth of Q.A., is greater than the collector. I do what everyone else does, the way they've done it for years. Jotting populations down, revising them, using white-out and labels. I upgraded as far as I could, as fast as I could, and let it go. I did the best I could. I heeded the counsel of fellow members. But I was laid low by time. The rampaging juggernaut came to a full and complete stop. Whew!  🐓 

[CoinJockey73]

On 9/2/2022 at 6:31 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@CoinJockey73:

Come to think of it, and I want to be fair about this, I believe these small yellow legal pads, purchased years ago, were the last items I remember buying from a 99-cent store, for just 99-cents. The rapid proliferation of C-19 made running these stores, economically unfeasible, and most folded or changed their signage. I share my notes. I am just a simple person. The Myth of Q.A., is greater than the collector. I do what everyone else does, the way they've done it for years. Jotting populations down, revising them, using white-out and labels. I upgraded as far as I could, as fast as I could, and let it go. I did the best I could. I heeded the counsel of fellow members. But I was laid low by time. The rampaging juggernaut came to a full and complete stop. Whew!  🐓 

Ya done good, kiddo! 

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/2/2022 at 7:11 PM, CoinJockey73 said:

Ya done good, kiddo! 

Muchos Gracias, senor!  [Or something like that.)

[CoinJockey73]

On 9/2/2022 at 7:38 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Muchos Gracias, senor!  [Or something like that.)

Whoa! Gonna have to dumb it down a little for me! I do not speak Australian! Thank you for the vote of confidence though. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/2/2022 at 7:41 PM, CoinJockey73 said:

Whoa! Gonna have to dumb it down a little for me! I do not speak Australian! Thank you for the vote of confidence though. 

Spanish. I guess that's close enough.  . 

[CoinJockey73]

On 9/2/2022 at 7:44 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Spanish. I guess that's close enough.  . 

If you say so! I still say it sounds Australian, shhhh. Keep that between you and me. I don't want any Australasia supporters picketing my thread. 

Although this is your thread. I'll still respect it, cuz it's you. Awww. Pals. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by CoinJockey73

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/2/2022 at 5:44 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Herewith, an authorized sneak peek of the Threadmaster's obsessive compulsion, at the height of his acquisition craze:

In the immortal words of sportswriter Oscar Madison...."What are these, plans for Apollo 15 ??" 

Edited September 3, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/5/2020 at 4:21 PM, cowbaby said:

I know the real reason why..But for the sake of argument I won't go into it....

OK, @cowbaby... it's past that time of year again and I'm still here, still standing, and still strong.

Enquiring minds want to know "the real reason why."  ["I don't know. You said it!  Funny how, like I'm a clown here to amuse you? How am I funny?"]

What's "the real reason why."  Context?  Reread it if you have to. It's been two years.  I'm still waiting very patiently for your answer...

Edited September 22, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Routine die polishing: to spiff up reply.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/8/2020 at 4:29 PM, VKurtB said:

I stand amused by folks who collect gold coins (by definition not cheap), and then gripe about seemingly trivial expenses such as TPG firm memberships and (yes, I really have seen this) the costs to park at a major national coin show. Perspective, people. Can we keep this stuff in perspective? Huh?

But Quintus is right about one thing. Especially as it pertains to World gold, there is far more out there raw than the grand total of slabs, in a wide variety of grades, even gaudy high grades. Finding them may require travel. That is, if the airfares and hotel room costs don't break your bank reserved for gold coins. SHEESH!

By the way, if you can ever complete ANY collection in 90 days, just how desirable could it possibly be?

This is the very first post I received from this highly-acclaimed member.  Is this great or what?

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/22/2021 at 10:37 PM, zadok said:

...i would not hold my breath waiting for the 2 roosters to return to the coop...in all likelihood those coins were purchased by a non-rooster collector, their primary qualification is that they r simply ms68 certified coins...its likely they were purchased for long term investment value...the next time they will appear will be when offered for resale in a high visibility auction or there is the possibility that a rooster collector mite track them down n purchase for a registry set....nothing would indicate that they will appear on the market again just because of an increase in gold bullion prices, those increases r simply not significant enuf to generate resale...for the most part roosters r still regarded by the collecting fraternity as bullion coins n the collector base just isnt strong enuf to create a gigantic premium for those coins...the buyer of those coins has no incentive to disclose their whereabouts n most likely is not a collector but an investor...as an example, i am a very diversified collector but still on occasion purchase finest known coins in areas that i do not collect just for long term investment, i have no need to publicize my ownership n should a higher graded coin appear on the market i normally then sell off the previously finest known examples because their only investment quality disappeared when they became second finest knowns....

Is it just me, dear reader, or do you, too, get a sense that there is an autobiographical aspect to this soliloquy?