French 20-franc gold rooster 1 1

[zadok]

On 9/20/2022 at 8:44 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Is it just me, dear reader, or do you, too, get a sense that there is an autobiographical aspect to this soliloquy?

...although those comments r more than 200 days old, i wasnt speaking to myself it was in dialogue with u bout possible ends to the whereabouts of the ms68's...n here we r those 200+ days n still no cockle doodle doo's....

[VKurtB]

On 9/20/2022 at 8:37 AM, zadok said:

...although those comments r more than 200 days old, i wasnt speaking to myself it was in dialogue with u bout possible ends to the whereabouts of the ms68's...n here we r those 200+ days n still no cockle doodle doo's....

I’ve lately seen a 64+ and even a 63 that were darned fine looking examples. 

[zadok]

On 9/21/2022 at 12:11 PM, VKurtB said:

I’ve lately seen a 64+ and even a 63 that were darned fine looking examples. 

...the french rooster presents itself very well in most of the ms grades, it is a bold n well defined design...i suspect the superlative grades r based on the fields of this coin n much like many of the US coinage finding examples with near perfect blemish free fields is extremely rare...since the rooster was basically a bullion oriented coin i suspect handling n preservation were not of major concern, assembling ms sets is not a challenge but assembling top-pop n winning registry sets a significant achievement....

[VKurtB]

On 9/21/2022 at 2:25 PM, zadok said:

...the french rooster presents itself very well in most of the ms grades, it is a bold n well defined design...i suspect the superlative grades r based on the fields of this coin n much like many of the US coinage finding examples with near perfect blemish free fields is extremely rare...since the rooster was basically a bullion oriented coin i suspect handling n preservation were not of major concern, assembling ms sets is not a challenge but assembling top-pop n winning registry sets a significant achievement....

The depth of the luster was stronger on the 64+, and for me, luster matters more than tick marks.  

[zadok]

On 9/21/2022 at 3:44 PM, VKurtB said:

The depth of the luster was stronger on the 64+, and for me, luster matters more than tick marks.  

...i prob agree that lustre plays a big roll in eye appeal but the graders tend to reward blemish free fields...the rooster does come with excellent lustre, ive seen a few with proof-like fields....

[VKurtB]

On 9/21/2022 at 2:52 PM, zadok said:

...i prob agree that lustre plays a big roll in eye appeal but the graders tend to reward blemish free fields...the rooster does come with excellent lustre, ive seen a few with proof-like fields....

Unlike the matte look that predominates on the Swiss 20 SFr. 

[Henri Charriere]

@zadok:

Here I am sitting at home, minding my own business and all of a sudden my ancient Linotype in a corner of my living room, bursts into activity with a 13-second banner headline, and spiel I could not believe: member zadok had apparently spotted my #1 ranked set registry, "Rooster Roster"--three years in a row now on the left coast--and paid me homage saying it was a "significant achievement"!  I cannot hold a candle to true numismatists like D. L. Hansen, who won awards for at least a dozen Top Classic Sets just announced within the past 24 hours, but to put one's credibility and reputation on the line to endorse a coin compilation by a mere Roostermeister toiling quietly cloaked in anonymity, is mighty humbling.

Thank you for your tribute! I am deeply honored.

[zadok]

On 9/21/2022 at 6:07 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@zadok:

Here I am sitting at home, minding my own business and all of a sudden my ancient Linotype in a corner of my living room, bursts into activity with a 13-second banner headline, and spiel I could not believe: member zadok had apparently spotted my #1 ranked set registry, "Rooster Roster"--three years in a row now on the left coast--and paid me homage saying it was a "significant achievement"!  I cannot hold a candle to true numismatists like D. L. Hansen, who won awards for at least a dozen Top Classic Sets just announced within the past 24 hours, but to put one's credibility and reputation on the line to endorse a coin compilation by a mere Roostermeister toiling quietly cloaked in anonymity, is mighty humbling.

Thank you for your tribute! I am deeply honored.

...UW...u could have eliminated the entire first paragraph n accomplished the same message....

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/21/2022 at 11:08 PM, zadok said:

...UW...u could have eliminated the entire first paragraph n accomplished the same message....

To be honest, no I couldn't. The reference to Linotype was my hook. Only a person old enough to remember what one was would know a Linotype is not a teletype. It does not receive messages. It cannot clatter to life on its own. It composes messages with hands-on input. But, alas, nobody took the bait. Drat!

No matter. You extolled my accomplishment to the heavens!  That's the pivotal moment when I became a somebody on the Forum. I don't need an expense account or a big shiny new car. I've got your imprimatur on a review! I am a force to be reckoned with! I AM A CONTENDER!     

[zadok]

On 9/21/2022 at 11:45 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

To be honest, no I couldn't. The reference to Linotype was my hook. Only a person old enough to remember what one was would know a Linotype is not a teletype. It does not receive messages. It cannot clatter to life on its own. It composes messages with hands-on input. But, alas, nobody took the bait. Drat!

No matter. You extolled my accomplishment to the heavens!  That's the pivotal moment when I became a somebody on the Forum. I don't need an expense account or a big shiny new car. I've got your imprimatur on a review! I am a force to be reckoned with! I AM A CONTENDER!     

...dont give up ur day job...remember if u aint first u r last, ricky-bobbie....

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/22/2022 at 8:43 AM, zadok said:

...dont give up ur day job...remember if u aint first u r last, ricky-bobbie....

I accept that, Learned One! I rocketed to the top and I am retired (and out of action).  If anyone bests me--entirely possible--he deserves the adulation you've heaped on me.  I should change my user name to Q.A., S.A. ... Significant Achievement.  I like the way it sounds!  Much obliged.  🐓 

[VKurtB]

On 9/22/2022 at 7:58 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

I accept that, Learned One! I rocketed to the top and I am retired (and out of action).  If anyone bests me--entirely possible--he deserves the adulation you've heaped on me.  I should change my user name to Q.A., S.A. ... Significant Achievement.  I like the way it sounds!  Much obliged.  🐓 

Speaking of which… I guess the Elizabeth II crowns are now a closed set. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/22/2022 at 1:01 PM, VKurtB said:

Speaking of which… I guess the Elizabeth II crowns are now a closed set. 

There was a run on them, but the Royal Mint reportedly has no plans to discontinue minting coins with her likeness on them.

[CaptHenway]

Just as an aside, back during the Y2K madness of 1998-1999, we had some wealthy church in the suburbs get on a "buy gold because the banks are going to implode on 1-1-2000" kick. They wanted relatively small coins, such as Sovereigns and 20 Francs for barter purposes, and we must have sold the parishoners at least 50,000 20 Francs if not more. When we got deliveries of product it was in 2,000, 4,000 or 5,000 piece lots and we were running them through the frippin' coin counter as nickels!!!!!

After the supplies of Roosters dried up we bought Angels. After those dried up we took Belgian 20 Francs, and near the end basically any LMU 20 Franc equivalent.

[zadok]

On 9/22/2022 at 5:50 PM, CaptHenway said:

Just as an aside, back during the Y2K madness of 1998-1999, we had some wealthy church in the suburbs get on a "buy gold because the banks are going to implode on 1-1-2000" kick. They wanted relatively small coins, such as Sovereigns and 20 Francs for barter purposes, and we must have sold the parishoners at least 50,000 20 Francs if not more. When we got deliveries of product it was in 2,000, 4,000 or 5,000 piece lots and we were running them through the frippin' coin counter as nickels!!!!!

After the supplies of Roosters dried up we bought Angels. After those dried up we took Belgian 20 Francs, and near the end basically any LMU 20 Franc equivalent.

...u shouldnt have said that, now QA will go into spasm mode thinking his roosters r nickels....

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/22/2022 at 6:02 PM, zadok said:

...u shouldnt have said that, now QA will go into spasm mode thinking his roosters r nickels....

Not at all. I am concerned that my wife will use them in the laundromat--and I hate admitting this--but I did take one with me earlier this week to see if it would fit into the slots of the washers and dryers. Well, of course it did!  (It's bigger than a dime and smaller than nickel.) The man who owns/manages the place is my unlikely, inadvertent heir. Curses!

[Henri Charriere]

@CaptHenway:

Funny you should mention that bit of millennial madness. I was not aware it extended to gold. I am not even sure if it was premature. I read a very persuasive argument indicating the 20th century (and millennium) would more correctly end on midnight December 31st, 2000--and the 21st century (and the millennium) would begin at the fall of the ball in Times Square, but rightly or wrongly, everything was programmed otherwise. Nothing happened... Imagine that!

[zadok]

On 9/22/2022 at 7:16 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@CaptHenway:

Funny you should mention that bit of millennial madness. I was not aware it extended to gold. I am not even sure if it was premature. I read a very persuasive argument indicating the 20th century (and millennium) would more correctly end on midnight December 31st, 2000--and the 21st century (and the millennium) would begin at the fall of the ball in Times Square, but rightly or wrongly, everything was programmed otherwise. Nothing happened... Imagine that!

...nothing is based on anything concerning times square or for that matter NYC itself, its not the center of anything anymore...Greenwich England would have been the more appropriate locale for anything of significance at the time....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/22/2022 at 7:03 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Not at all. I am concerned that my wife will use them in the laundromat--and I hate admitting this--but I did take one with me earlier this week to see if it would fit into the slots of the washers and dryers. Well, of course it did!  (It's bigger than a dime and smaller than nickel.) The man who owns/manages the place is my unlikely, inadvertent heir. Curses!

More important to me....can it fit in the slot to activate a game of SPACE INVADERS or PAC-MAN ? 

[VKurtB]

On 9/23/2022 at 5:41 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

More important to me....can it fit in the slot to activate a game of SPACE INVADERS or PAC-MAN ? 

I can tell you in all truthfulness that I have never played either game even once. I have watched others do it, and I couldn’t conceive of the appeal. And by the way, there isn’t a single game on my iPhone either. My wife CANNOT make that claim. She’s addicted to Bejeweled variants. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/23/2022 at 6:41 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

More important to me....can it fit in the slot to activate a game of SPACE INVADERS or PAC-MAN ? 

I am sorry to confirm it will, with ease!

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/23/2022 at 6:46 PM, VKurtB said:

Bejeweled variants. 

They recently announced a new C-19 variant, but if it were bejeweled I would have heard about it.   

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/23/2022 at 10:19 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I am sorry to confirm it will, with ease!

I think I'll save the Roosters...and insert those plastic protective tops on the old Johnson Wax products that were the same size as a quarter.  

[Henri Charriere]

Following is a complete list of the FRENCH 20-FRANC GOLD PIECE series, 1802 - 1914, which was introduced not long after the storming of the Bastille (1789) the French Revolution and the birth of the French Republic.

1.  Bonaparte Premier Consul  (1802 - 1803)

2.  Napoleon I  (1803 - 1813)

3.  Louis XVIII  (1814 - 1824)

4.  Charles X  (1825 -)? 1830)

5.  Louis Philippe  (1830 - 1848)

6.  Genie  (1848 - 1849)

7.  Ceres  (1849 - 1851)

8.  Louis Napoleon  (1852)

9.  Napoleon III  (1853 - 1870)

10. Genie  (1871 - 1898)

11.  Marianne (Coq) (1899 - 1914) a/k/a "Gold Rooster,"  released in two series, as follows:

"Dieu Protégé la France"  (God Protect France)  1899 - 1906, commonly referred to as the "Originals."

"Liberte Egalite Fraternite"  (Liberty Equality Fraternity)  (1907 - 1914), commonly referred to as the "Restrikes."

PART A.  PCGS CERTIFICATION BREAKDOWNS.

As of today, 12/12/22, 430 originals (1899-1906) have been authenticated and certified.  Interestingly, 1 has been graded MS-45; 7 @ MS-55 and 28 @ MS-58.  To date, no original has been certified MS-67, or higher.  Only 7 have been certified as MS-66; some 38 @ MS-65.

As of today, 12/12/22, 2,744 restrikes (1907-1914) have been authenticated and certified. Interestingly, 5 have been graded MS-55 and 17 @ MS-58. Notably, 637 have been certified as MS-66 while 66 have been certified as MS-67.  For some time now, and particularly following a recent rooster-dump, I have maintained that set registrants encounter an invisible wall at the 66/67 demarcation line.  These stats bear out my contention, whatever the reason.  In addition, the compilation of a low-ball set, either now or in the near future, appears highly unlikely for two reasons: it would not be economical (current melt: $335.) and few of these essentially bullion coins bear wear and tear.

[Stay tuned for PART B of my survey:  NGC CERTIFICATION BREAKDOWNS, to be released shortly.]

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/13/2022 at 10:30 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

PART A.  PCGS CERTIFICATION BREAKDOWNS.  As of today, 12/12/22, 430 originals (1899-1906) have been authenticated and certified.  Interestingly, 1 has been graded MS-45; 7 @ MS-55 and 28 @ MS-58.  To date, no original has been certified MS-67, or higher.  Only 7 have been certified as MS-66; some 38 @ MS-65.  As of today, 12/12/22, 2,744 restrikes (1907-1914) have been authenticated and certified. Interestingly, 5 have been graded MS-55 and 17 @ MS-58. Notably, 637 have been certified as MS-66 while 66 have been certified as MS-67.  For some time now, and particularly following a recent rooster-dump, I have maintained that set registrants encounter an invisible wall at the 66/67 demarcation line.  These stats bear out my contention, whatever the reason.  In addition, the compilation of a low-ball set, either now or in the near future, appears highly unlikely for two reasons: it would not be economical (current melt: $335.) and few of these essentially bullion coins bear wear and tear.  [Stay tuned for PART B of my survey:  NGC CERTIFICATION BREAKDOWNS, to be released shortly.]

From the Church Hoard above, it appears SOME years there are tons of survivors, no ?  They may be circulated and even worn, but lots survived.

Edited December 13, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

PART B.  NGC CERTIFICATION BREAKDOWNS

FRANCE 1870 TO DATE

Of the 77 denominations specified in the NGC census, the Gold 20-Franc piece by far reigns supreme with 7,493 authentications and certifications, as of this writing.

With respect to the G20F Rooster, while only 5 have been graded MS-50 (two originals; 3 restrikes) a curiosity may be noted at the MS-58 grade: 62 (My theory supported by both intuition and experience is collectors submitted these examples uncertain---- notwithstanding claims by eBay or other sellers' to the contrary----as to whether what they had purchased were Mint State, or not.)

While NGC does not provide certification totals for originals and restrikes, I should like to bring to the attention of members and lurkers alike, a few select observations...

As readers can attest, I have consistently maintained compiling a complete set of originals (1899-1906) irrespective of desired condition, is challenging.  None have been graded MS-67.  Only two have been graded MS-66: 1899 and 1906; and only two have been graded  MS-65: 1900 and 1905.

As in the case of PCGS, both the avid collector and participants in the Set Registry (64 at NGC; 9 at PCGS) have encountered an invisible wall at the MS-66/MS-67 demarcation line.

The number of restrikes graded at MS-66, presently, stands at: 666.  The number of resrikes graded at MS-67, presently, stands at:  203.

I am obliged to take note of one other rather astonishing, though little noted development...  Two restrikes, dated 1908 and 1912, initially graded at an unprecedented MS-68 at PCGS in the past year, without notice or fanfare, were submitted to NGC where both cross-graded successfully, and promptly disappeared.  They do not, and have never, appeared in any Set Registry.  To my knowledge, neither have been offered for sale.  A highly-esteemed member I have been told I may no longer refer to as The Great One has proclaimed I, nor anyone else, shall ever set eyes upon them in my lifetime. If his prognostication holds true, I may be said to be the current and all-time Rooster meister, but absent those two coins, I can never truly be the best.  This concludes my year-end review of the state of certifications of the French 20-franc gold rooster as undertaken by NGC and PCGS.  🐓 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Post-editing die polishing.

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:36 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

From the Church Hoard above, it appears SOME years there are tons of survivors, no ?  They may be circulated and even worn, but lots survived.

I am afraid I am eminently unqualified to expound upon the final dispositions of this beloved coin series.

[VKurtB]

Goodness! What does a gold coin that has NOT survived look like? Is it a schmutz on a gold leafed lettered window somewhere?

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/15/2022 at 6:43 PM, VKurtB said:

Goodness! What does a gold coin that has NOT survived look like? Is it a schmutz on a gold leafed lettered window somewhere?

It seems not enough of the more pristine, problem-free examples have surfaced (wherever they may now reside) but as far as the hundred million pieces minted, one's guess is as good as anyone else's.  Nobody knows or those who do, aren't talking.

[VKurtB]

On 12/15/2022 at 9:30 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

It seems not enough of the more pristine, problem-free examples have surfaced (wherever they may now reside) but as far as the hundred million pieces minted, one's guess is as good as anyone else's.  Nobody knows or those who do, aren't talking.

And neither is SBF, other than to complain about his jail diet. Vegan? What the… ? He should be happy with kosher.