French 20-franc gold rooster 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

A member posted a coin which I recognized instantly because I own one of a different denomination. I sent it to him.  He posted that coin and sent me this picture, hand-painted by his wife, entitled: MS-67 The Elusive Rooster (2023). Thanks again, CIII!  Is this place great, or what?  

 

 

[cobymordet]

It only took 3 months to get this response.  Just enough time to forget the question:

Per NGC:

Hello @cobymordet, thank you for contacting us. Grading only takes place at our Sarasota headquarters. The only time grading may take place in other countries is for on-site grading events. Hope this helps!

Please let us know if you have any additional questions. Thank you!

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/28/2024 at 12:05 PM, cobymordet said:

It only took 3 months to get this response.  Just enough time to forget the question:

Per NGC:

Hello @cobymordet, thank you for contacting us. Grading only takes place at our Sarasota headquarters. The only time grading may take place in other countries is for on-site grading events. Hope this helps!

Please let us know if you have any additional questions. Thank you!

I appreciate the reply.  Not sure many people read this column, but evidently I stand corrected.  NOW, I understand why the turn-around times are what they are.  Thanks!

 

[Henri Charriere]

This being the First of the Month, I usually undertake a review of the various compilations on the respective Set Registries, here and "there."  It appears there are six times as many collectors here, than "there." Only 2 points and change, separate my Best Current and All-Time Set rating, 65.906, "there" with the current Finest Possible Set Rating: 67.313.

I continue to urge all serious collectors of this 16-coin series to look to France and Germany for sought-after examples. The only glitch I sensed, confirmed recently by our globe-trotting ambassador, is an apparent disinclination on the part of dealers to submit coins for formal certification. In a real sense, this has put a kibosh on collecting this series. If you wish to assemble a type set within a preferred range of grades, it can be done. The availability is there. The serious collector must be prepared to GTG with photos and big bucks. All know I am not risk-averse, but am I willing to put, say, $1,250 + on the line, gambling an FDC (U.S. equivalent from MS-65 to MS-70) is specifically an MS-67 for Set Registry purposes?  No.  What are you going to do when the FDC you waited up to a month for comes back from a TPGS designated MS-64+?  Food for thought. As for me, it was one helluva learning experience. I had a good run, had a lot of fun, and now I'm done. All I have to do is defend my title, tooth and nail, for the rest of my life.  

[cobymordet]

You should hit up Rocky, he did well defending his title against all manner of opponent.  I think he is in Florida now. 

[Henri Charriere]

OF INTEREST TO ALL COLLECTORS OF WORLD COINS...

As collectors of this series (and this column) know by now, while I cannot say there has never been a time better than now to compile a set, availability seems to have picked up. Accordingly, if you are within the sound of my voice, check out MA-SHOPS, a sponsor of our hosts.

Today alone, I received three separate e-mails advertising their latest offerings. The site is based in Germany (with an outpost in the United States - Florida) with employees fluent in English.

At one time I unsubscribed from them in frustration but have come to the realization that many terms can be inserted in their search bar which will produce all manner of different results.

On one of the e-mails I received, I tweaked the search terms used to read, "20 Francs Coq Marianne MS-67," not sure what to expect. What spewed forth were dozens of listings for 20 Franc coins of several countries, dates, grades, both certified and raw, or in other words, the whole kit 'n' caboodle. (If you collect World Coins, try a variety of descriptions. One or more is bound to produce a bounty.)

If you are building a Set Registry, and are not familiar with the site, it behooves you to check it out.  True, not a single MS-67 example was included in my most recent results, but I have not been deterred.  Instead, I felt compelled to provide a lead to those of you who struggle to find one of the "Originals" (1899-1906). The pickings are plentiful. Six examples of the 1900 alone, were retrieved -- the rarest in the series, in various grades and prices.

FOR COLLECTORS OF WORLD COINS:

If you are unacquainted with this site, jump in, the water's fine.  There is no telling which of the scores of dealers affiliated with their platform, may have that certain something that has eluded you up to now. Happy hunting to all!

Note:  I have been a member here, and a collector of gold roosters, for five years and recommend MA-SHOPS, unreservedly. Every experience I have had with their dealers has been positive: every order I placed was executed with dispatch.  🐓 

Edited March 18 by Henri Charriere
Correct misspelling.

[GoldFinger1969]

Late-2023 Numismatic News article on French Roosters.  Good for most of us, probably 2nd-hand to Henri:

https://www.numismaticnews.net/collecting-101/bargain-collector-french-rooster-popular-gold-coin

[zadok]

On 3/17/2024 at 1:40 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Late-2023 Numismatic News article on French Roosters.  Good for most of us, probably 2nd-hand to Henri:

https://www.numismaticnews.net/collecting-101/bargain-collector-french-rooster-popular-gold-coin

...yea mark writes lots of those short articles on whats out there thats not always obvious to the collectors that mite be looking for something to collect, operative word "collectors"...many of his articles r collector based as opposed to investor related n definitely not dealer related...the hints in this article r "bargain" n "common", this particular series allows the collector to feed his collector habit at relative low expense n not a difficult series to search for, the coins r basically common bullion coins n easily obtainable in mint state, if one chose to he/she could complete the entire set in a month or two, if funds available, only one semi-key date n it shows up in lower mint state the rest routinely mid-grade mint state...there r several diff series that fit this same bill, netherlands 10 gulden comes to mind n a few others...plus as mark mentions it gets ur foot thru the gold door if one is so inclined....

[Henri Charriere]

Now that uncle z has elected to weigh in on a decidedly more positive note, he has inadvertently relieved me of the obligation to report on a seemingly level narrative, regrettably riddled with assumptions, conjecture -- and outright error, including contradiction.

At the head of this thread, posted nearly five years ago you will find a declaration that I intended to complete my set in 90 days. Our own VKB, amused by the constricted timeline, mused, if any collection could be compiled in only 90 days, how valuable could it possibly be?  Today, at this juncture, I believe the pickings are lush, but if your intent shifts to the best possible set, your wait will be interminable. There are more questions than answers as regarding this subject. As it stands, a dedicated collector of this fairly limited series must consult a number of disparate sources to develop a fuller understanding and appreciation of this last of the fabled 20-franc gold series.

[zadok]

On 3/17/2024 at 4:13 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Now that uncle z has elected to weigh in on a decidedly more positive note, he has inadvertently relieved me of the obligation to report on a seemingly level narrative, regrettably riddled with assumptions, conjecture -- and outright error, including contradiction.

At the head of this thread, posted nearly five years ago you will find a declaration that I intended to complete my set in 90 days. Our own VKB, amused by the constricted timeline, mused, if any collection could be compiled in only 90 days, how valuable could it possibly be?  Today, at this juncture, I believe the pickings are lush, but if your intent shifts to the best possible set, your wait will be interminable. There are more questions than answers as regarding this subject. As it stands, a dedicated collector of this fairly limited series must consult a number of disparate sources to develop a fuller understanding and appreciation of this last of the fabled 20-franc gold series.

...again more babble saying nothing...sad...definitely something/somebody needs relieved, if only we had that option, but is what it is...we really need a wider variety of emojis here....

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/17/2024 at 7:01 PM, zadok said:

...again more babble saying nothing...sad...definitely something/somebody needs relieved, if only we had that option, but is what it is...we really need a wider variety of emojis here....

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Malheureusement, I will have to take some time out of my busy schedule to re-read this article a third time and do what I dislike doing: structuring my response to comport to the views held by a single disgruntled member, instead of "broadening the body of knowledge," for the benefit of all. Ah well, perhaps the quota for belittling others has been attained and it is my turn to be heckled. Fair enough. I will return with a blow-by-blow analytic look at the article and point out three deficiencies that I see that evidently are not crystal-clear to those ill-equipped to interpret the finer nuances which separate the buyers from the cryers. I'll be back!  

[zadok]

On 3/17/2024 at 7:51 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Malheureusement, I will have to take some time out of my busy schedule to re-read this article a third time and do what I dislike doing: structuring my response to comport to the views held by a single disgruntled member, instead of "broadening the body of knowledge," for the benefit of all. Ah well, perhaps the quota for belittling others has been attained and it is my turn to be heckled. Fair enough. I will return with a blow-by-blow analytic look at the article and point out three deficiencies that I see that evidently are not crystal-clear to those ill-equipped to interpret the finer nuances which separate the buyers from the cryers. I'll be back!  

...actually laughable if it werent so sad...dont get in too far over ur head....

[Henri Charriere]

The following is my critique of an article, to which @GoldFinger1969provided a helpful link to in a comment posted upthread within the past 24 hours.

"Bargain Collector: French Rooster Popular Gold Coin," Numismatic News, Dec. 26, 2023."

1.  "The French Rooster -- a 20-franc gold coin -- has a far shorter life span, having been coined from 1899 only until 1914."

(The Originals, 1899-1906, were coined as dated. The Restrikes, 1907-1914, were coined, in large part, in 1921 and again during the 1950's and 1960's.)

2.  "Virtually all of the Roosters qualify as common."

(Patently false and a baseless assertion.  A quick review of all mintages and Set Registries at the top two TPGS, indicate otherwise. The Originals are anything but common; five of the oldest, consecutively-dated eight Originals, which include the two rarest in the entire series, are elusive. There is a reason why bullion dealers like AMPEX advertise Roosters using the term "random date" or a date of our choosing to exclude ALL the Originals.)

3.  "... several of the French Roosters reprised -- if we want to say that using a polite term --" 

(The French term is refrappe, as opposed to frappe. In the USA, the term used is restrike. It would appear 99.44% of Rooster devotees have been using an impolite term. For sticklers of proper terminology, the term for total mintage used by the French translates into "key strokes.")

4.  (continuing from Point 3 above) " -- and have been produced at times quite a few years later than their dates would suggest." 

(Effectively contradicting an earlier comment. And the use of "quite a few years later" is imprecise and of no probative value to the collector.)

5.  "....Whatever the case, though, it is never hard to find a gold Rooster."

(A gratuitous claim that would likely apply to all coins minted now, as well as in the 20th century.)

6.  ".... it seems that the gold French Rooster minted at the turn of the 20th century comprise a short series that does have some bargain potential."

(Again, an overly broad generalization considering ALL were minted at the turn of the 20th century, but only the Restrike series is universally recognized as the "short series" which is easiest to acquire and compile though the finest grades are chronically unavailable.)

Note: As of this writing, I have posted a "Wanted: Dead or Alive" listing on the Coin Marketplace forum offering a standing $500. Reward for any one of three 20-franc gold Roosters I have sought for some time, irrespective of selling price. To date, I have received not a single response.   🐓 

Posted, as always, solely at the discretion of Moderators.

 

[zadok]

On 3/17/2024 at 10:26 PM, Henri Charriere said:

The following is my critique of an article, to which @GoldFinger1969provided a helpful link to in a comment posted upthread within the past 24 hours.

"Bargain Collector: French Rooster Popular Gold Coin," Numismatic News, Dec. 26, 2023."

1.  "The French Rooster -- a 20-franc gold coin -- has a far shorter life span, having been coined from 1899 only until 1914."

(The Originals, 1899-1906, were coined as dated. The Restrikes, 1907-1914, were coined, in large part, in 1921 and again during the 1950's and 1960's.)

2.  "Virtually all of the Roosters qualify as common."

(Patently false and a baseless assertion.  A quick review of all mintages and Set Registries at the top two TPGS, indicate otherwise. The Originals are anything but common; five of the oldest, consecutively-dated eight Originals, which include the two rarest in the entire series, are elusive. There is a reason why bullion dealers like AMPEX advertise Roosters using the term "random date" or a date of our choosing to exclude ALL the Originals.)

3.  "... several of the French Roosters reprised -- if we want to say that using a polite term --" 

(The French term is refrappe, as opposed to frappe. In the USA, the term used is restrike. It would appear 99.44% of Rooster devotees have been using an impolite term. For sticklers of proper terminology, the term for total mintage used by the French translates into "key strokes.")

4.  (continuing from Point 3 above) " -- and have been produced at times quite a few years later than their dates would suggest." 

(Effectively contradicting an earlier comment. And the use of "quite a few years later" is imprecise and of no probative value to the collector.)

5.  "....Whatever the case, though, it is never hard to find a gold Rooster."

(A gratuitous claim that would likely apply to all coins minted now, as well as in the 20th century.)

6.  ".... it seems that the gold French Rooster minted at the turn of the 20th century comprise a short series that does have some bargain potential."

(Again, an overly broad generalization considering ALL were minted at the turn of the 20th century, but only the Restrike series is universally recognized as the "short series" which is easiest to acquire and compile though the finest grades are chronically unavailable.)

Note: As of this writing, I have posted a "Wanted: Dead or Alive" listing on the Coin Marketplace forum offering a standing $500. Reward for any one of three 20-franc gold Roosters I have sought for some time, irrespective of selling price. To date, I have received not a single response.   🐓 

Posted, as always, solely at the discretion of Moderators.

 

...not to worry, very shallow water indeed....

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/18/2024 at 10:32 AM, zadok said:

...not to worry, very shallow water indeed....

... don't mention it ... without your invaluable assistance, i never would have been elevated to LEADERBOARD status ... he who laughs last, laughs best ... is this place great, or what? ... man, I love this place!  🤣 

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/17/2024 at 3:22 PM, zadok said:

.... the coins r basically common bullion coins n easily obtainable in mint state, if one chose to he/she could complete the entire set in a month or two, if funds available, only one semi-key date....

Blast from the Past!

🐓  :  Maybe he (uncle z) knows something the other two don't.

Q.A.:  Is that your quaint way of referring to the owners of the two finest, Top-Ranked sets of French 20-franc gold roosters ever assembled on the Set Registry?

🐓  :  They are both missing one date.

Q.A.:  Yes, the one our benefactor dismissively refers to as "semi-key."  (About as "semi-key" as an '09-S-VDB.) And not for lack of effort or funds either. These are numismatic connoisseurs with discriminating tastes. Only the very finest will do. They are artists-in-waiting. Awaiting the keystones in completion of their respective loves of labor. They are a credit to collectors of the series, NGC forums, and hobbyists at large, worldwide.  

[zadok]

On 3/18/2024 at 5:41 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Blast from the Past!

🐓  :  Maybe he (uncle z) knows something the other two don't.

Q.A.:  Is that your quaint way of referring to the owners of the two finest, Top-Ranked sets of French 20-franc gold roosters ever assembled on the Set Registry?

🐓  :  They are both missing one date.

Q.A.:  Yes, the one our benefactor dismissively refers to as "semi-key."  (About as "semi-key" as an '09-S-VDB.) And not for lack of effort or funds either. These are numismatic connoisseurs with discriminating tastes. Only the very finest will do. They are artists-in-waiting. Awaiting the keystones in completion of their respective loves of labor. They are a credit to collectors of the series, NGC forums, and hobbyists at large, worldwide.  

...feeble...so sad....blast from the past? sounds more like a dump from the rump....

[GoldFinger1969]

Why do I feel I am re-living the M*A*S*H sitcom, with me caught between Hawkeye Pierce and Trapper John/BJ Hunnicutt vs. Frank Burns or Winchester ? 

Edited March 18 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

I have been scouring auctions for 20 Franc roosters that have been graded. There seems to be a very hard resistance level at MS65. It’s as if you have to wallop somebody upside da’ head to get them to consider going to MS66.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2024 at 7:53 PM, VKurtB said:

I have been scouring auctions for 20 Franc roosters that have been graded. There seems to be a very hard resistance level at MS65. It’s as if you have to wallop somebody upside da’ head to get them to consider going to MS66.  

How many of the originals (non-restrikes) were minted and how many survived ? 

Both numbers are probably much less than for Liberty's or Saints....but this was a SMALLER gold coin used for commerce and the French seemed to use their gold much more than Americans, given their domestic upheavals from 1870-1936.

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/18/2024 at 7:53 PM, VKurtB said:

I have been scouring auctions for 20 Franc roosters that have been graded. There seems to be a very hard resistance level at MS65. It’s as if you have to wallop somebody upside da’ head to get them to consider going to MS66.  

Troo dat!  You have inadvertently stumbled onto... The Truth.  Here, the wall of resistance is erected astride the 66/67 Line of Partition. It is translucent and porous.  Over "there," the wall of resistance, erected astride the 66/67 Line is opaque and impervious. One is wooden; the other is made of concrete reinforced with rebar. I crossed the Finish Line. Incidentally, should you wish to cross-dress  the 64+ with more suitable raiment, you have my express blessing to do so.  

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/18/2024 at 10:00 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

How many of the originals (non-restrikes) were minted and how many survived ? 

Both numbers are probably much less than for Liberty's or Saints....but this was a SMALLER gold coin used for commerce and the French seemed to use their gold much more than Americans, given their domestic upheavals from 1870-1936.

Key strokes...

Originals:  roughly 33 mil.  Restrikes:  roughly 84 mil.  Total: roughly 117 minted. All agree far more of the latter survived. The Originals were beset by mass meltings, exports, losses, thefts, etc. largely exacerbated by wars. There is no bullion dealer presently known to civilized man who will sell you an Original gold rooster at melt + a nominal premium. None. Restrikes are readily available; the Originals are birds of a different feather.  My theory as regarding certifications is any grading less than Mint State were accidents submitted by optimists. It simply isn't cost-effective but increasingly becomes so as gold rises higher. 

In another hour EDT, it will be spring (printemps, Fr.) I will tally up certification breakdowns by the top two TPGSs and post them on this thread,  manana. 🐓 

 

[Henri Charriere]

Ahhh, First Day of spring!  And here are a few stats I dug up overnite re Certifications of the earlier, "original" French 20-Francs gold rooster (1899-1906) series.

To recap, there were about 33 million originals of the 117 million minted, and from the inception of TPGSs going on 40 years ago to the present, here is how the breakdown looks.

All Mint State grades, 60 and up, totals: NGC 395/PCGS 508;  All grades below MS-60:  NGC 93/PCGS 56. (The lowest "low-ball" was graded adjectivally, as Fine.)

On the high end, MS-65 to MS-70 (FDC in French) Totals: NGC 16/PCGS 46. (MS-66:  NGC 2/PCGS 8;  MS-67:  Zero (none) at either.

Bear in mind, these stats are for the "originals" only!  The pickings are sparce.

🐓

 

Edited March 19 by Henri Charriere
Routine die polishing.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2024 at 10:00 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

How many of the originals (non-restrikes) were minted and how many survived ?  Both numbers are probably much less than for Liberty's or Saints....but this was a SMALLER gold coin used for commerce and the French seemed to use their gold much more than Americans, given their domestic upheavals from 1870-1936.

It's too bad they didn't have a 1-ounce coin like the Liberty Head or Saint.  Seems that for most countries their #1 gold coin was much smaller than 1 ounce.

[VKurtB]

On 3/19/2024 at 8:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's too bad they didn't have a 1-ounce coin like the Liberty Head or Saint.  Seems that for most countries their #1 gold coin was much smaller than 1 ounce.

.1867 ounce, to be precise.

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/19/2024 at 11:20 AM, VKurtB said:

.1867 ounce, to be precise.

Correctamundo. Just under a fifth of a troy ounce as compared with the 50-peso 1.2057 troy ounce [AGW] Centanario de oro of Mexico, first minted in 1921, commemorating its 100th anniversary of independence from Spanish rule.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/19/2024 at 11:48 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Correctamundo. Just under a fifth of a troy ounce as compared with the 50-peso 1.2057 troy ounce [AGW] Centanario de oro of Mexico, first minted in 1921, commemorating its 100th anniversary of independence from Spanish rule.  

How did they come up with these "weird" ounce numbers ?

[Henri Charriere]

Good question! (My uncle z would likely know. 🤣 )

The coin's composition is 90/10, gold/copper.

The overall weight is 1.3397 ozs; 41.67 gms.

The precious metal content, or actual gold weight (AGW) is 1.2057 ozs; 37.5 gms.

BUT gold, a precious metal, is weighed in troy ozs; copper, a non-precious metal is weighed in avoirdupois (avdp) ozs. This coin is an alloy. The "operative" word (to quote my Top Follower) is "weight."  But which scale is used is for far greater minds than mine to "weigh" in on.  

Edited March 19 by Henri Charriere
Usual die polishing

[zadok]

On 3/19/2024 at 12:29 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

How did they come up with these "weird" ounce numbers ?

...u would need to go n research/study the coinage issued under the Latin Monetary Union to find ur answer...bit too expansive to list here...lets just say the 20 franc n its gold weight was the "euro before the euro"...napoleon's attempt to standardize continental currencies....

[Henri Charriere]

🐓:  You know what? He's right!... How did you know he'd know?

Q.A.:  I didn't... beginners' luck is all...