French 20-franc gold rooster 1 1

[VKurtB]

On 5/4/2024 at 3:55 PM, Henri Charriere said:

British Petroleum [BP] ain't got a da-ned thing to do with it!  

Revisit the figures I provided upthread.

Gold Rooster melt, then, was $429.82.  [Spot gold was $2302.02.]

The gold bullion dealer with the least expensive gold roosters was APMEX: $445., exclusive of dealer premium and sales taxes, where applicable.

The gold bullion dealer with the most expensive gold roosters was Money Metals Exchange: $488., exclusive of dealer premium and sales taxes, where applicable.

That was then, yesterday. Today is today, and tomorrow, may be further up or down.

One thing I have to give @zadok credit for was opening my eyes up to the fact that F20FR GR are bullion. Of course, gold spot price is less of a consideration the higher you go up the Mint State scale.  The owners of the finest examples, I believe it safe to say, do not fret over fluctuations.

Yup. Dealers in the Kirk Kelly network of dealerships regularly had so-called mint state Coq Marianne in their monthly mail order flyers a few decades ago. Of course, they were not necessarily really high grades. The frustrating thing is that there are almost definitely more “registry worthy” pieces out there, but they are “trapped” in countries in which there is no widely recognized difference between MS65 and MS70. Yes, our fascination with single points and pluses and stars is pretty uniquely an American fetish. 

Edited May 5 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 5/4/2024 at 10:56 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But with the BP they were above melt, right ? 

I wonder if that was peculiar to Roosters or maybe also the case with other gold coins, MS or not ?  Could be someone willing to ditch them below melt (again, pre-BP) because they think gold is going to drop in price. 

...no it was basically that way for all of the bullion related issues, swiss francs, sovereigns etc etc...even if in mint state, the only time any significant premium over bullion melt was if very high grades or top pops, as u mention with the bp n taxes the end price would be at or slightly over bullion, but not all buyers pay the taxes so one can actually buy at or slightly below bullion...as i have often stated this series n many others that served as bullion place holders dont have a big collector base, there r a few registry set collectors n in the roosters some interest in the pre restike issues but its very minimal, thats one reason u see so many unslabbed mint state coins, if it doesnt slab top pop u dont recover ur certification costs otherwise ud see dealers slabbing a hundred at a time as bulk submissions but there r not that many collectors to buy the mid range uncs....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/26/2024 at 10:16 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't see articles in the papers of the day talking about the citizens of the UK, Switzerland, Germany, etc.....engaging in the hoarding of gold and gold coins to the extent that the French did.  Clearly, a cultural thing. Europe overall much more into gold coins than here in the States.   French farmers, middle class, and professional class (doctors, lawyers, small businessmen) leading the charge. Not sure why...could go back to Napoleon.  No history of devestating wars that I am aware of or hyperinflations in the 1800's.  WWI did have an impact on the accumulation tendencies of the 1920's and 1930's but not sure about the herd instinct before then.

Zadok....article in August 1933 NYT said that 35 billion French Francs had been hoarded, or about $2 BB U.S.  Not all gold, some silver, but probably mostly gold.

Even before the Depression hit, I think this was a response to WW I.   WW I had such an effect on the French psyche....the trench warfare....the evsiceration of millions of French men (in some towns, the ratio of eligible marrying-age females to men was 6-to-1 ).  Clearly scarred, the same country that largely held off the Kaiser's armies in 1914-18 folded in 6 weeks less than 25 years later when facing the Nazis.

I think this accounts for part of the massive hoarding in France relative to other countries. 

Edited May 6 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

@GoldFinger1969 :

Re:    "35 BB French Francs had been hoarded or about 2 BB U.S....not all gold, some silver, but probably mostly gold."

If I may muddy up the waters, only 117-1/2 MM 20-Francs gold roosters were minted, only 1/3 of which, the "originals," are relevant to the conversation, having been struck to 1906.

The "restrikes" (1907 to 1914) were re-minted between 1951 to 1960. The 1914 was re-minted in 202,359 copies in 1921.

Clearly, the number of gold roosters available for melting, some 43 MM played a miniscule role when one accepts 35 BB pieces were involved overall.

 

[zadok]

On 5/6/2024 at 2:52 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Zadok....article in August 1933 NYT said that 35 billion French Francs had been hoarded, or about $2 BB U.S.  Not all gold, some silver, but probably mostly gold.

Even before the Depression hit, I think this was a response to WW I.   WW I had such an effect on the French psyche....the trench warfare....the evsiceration of millions of French men (in some towns, the ratio of eligible marrying-age females to men was 6-to-1 ).  Clearly scarred, the same country that largely held off the Kaiser's armies in 1914-18 folded in 6 weeks less than 25 years later when facing the Nazis.

I think this accounts for part of the massive hoarding in France relative to other countries. 

...i definitely like the 6 to 1 ratio...a lot of the hoarded gold most likely ended up in nazi hands, but im sure every one hoarded everything they could, question would be just what gold was available to hoard?...obviously the restrike roosters prob not hoarded since never really put into circulation...lots of diff corollaries to follow to try determine what mite have shown up in hoards etc...but sort of need to know what was there to start with....

[VKurtB]

On 5/6/2024 at 11:51 AM, zadok said:

...i definitely like the 6 to 1 ratio...a lot of the hoarded gold most likely ended up in nazi hands, but im sure every one hoarded everything they could, question would be just what gold was available to hoard?...obviously the restrike roosters prob not hoarded since never really put into circulation...lots of diff corollaries to follow to try determine what mite have shown up in hoards etc...but sort of need to know what was there to start with....

The post-war Swiss Vrenellis (1947B and 1949B) were allegedly made from Holocaust victims' gold false teeth removed by the Nazis. 

 

Edited May 6 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/6/2024 at 11:39 AM, Henri Charriere said:

@GoldFinger1969 : Re:"35 BB French Francs had been hoarded or about 2 BB U.S....not all gold, some silver, but probably mostly gold." If I may muddy up the waters, only 117-1/2 MM 20-Francs gold roosters were minted, only1/3 of which, the "originals,"are relevant to the conversation, having been struck to 1906. The "restrikes" (1907 to 1914) were re-minted between1951to1960. The 1914 was re-minted in 202,359 copies in 1921. Clearly, the number of gold roosters available for melting,some43M played a miniscule role when one accepts 35 BB pieces were involved overall.

For their life savings, different from their day-to-day commerce needs, a larger coin was preferable.  Double Eagles fit the bill, Henri.

That's why this article caught my attention.  $20 is right in the sweet spot; the bar would have been over $8,000. 

Edited May 7 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/6/2024 at 2:36 PM, VKurtB said:

The post-war Swiss Vrenellis (1947B and 1949B) were allegedly made from Holocaust victims' gold false teeth removed by the Nazis. 

 

VIEWER DISCRETION IS ADVISED.

Here, let me pretty this up for RWB-types. (We don't need Re-write.) Pay close attention!

"Informed sources have indicated..."  "Unconfirmed reports..."  "The principals, declining to speak for attribution..." "Confidential sources not authorized to speak for attribution..."  You get the idea.

Got that Roger?  Use terms like "could not be confirmed by independent sources"... & "Allegedly,..."  Or as the FBI once put it during an unpublicized interrogation, "We are not accusing you with anything.  You are simply being charged with ------- in a Federal complaint. 

For those intent on assailing my good character and name... some additional fodder:

In New Orleans, bodies are not buried underground due to the high water table.  They are entombed, much like General Grant. [Edit: Vacancies develop when there are no survivors left, remains are literally swept out and a newly-deceased interred. This is practicality and hews with common-sense tradition.] The Chinese, correction, the Red Chinese, harvest organs.  In the United States, donations of organs is commonplace and blood is taken for use where needed.  I don't think many people here would argue burying everyday artifacts for use by King Tut's entourage is [Expletive deleted.]  Many personal items were taken. But how does the recycling of teeth and hair or all those horrific acts committed by those in the interests of science on living souls compare with the totality of the circumstances?  When dehumanization occurs, anything that comes afterward is made easy. THIS HAPPENS REGULARLY ALL OVER THE WORLD TO THIS DAY WITH LITTLE OR NO NOTICE.

(POSTED AT THE DISCRETION OF MODERATION WITH MY INFORMED CONSENT.)

Edited May 12 by Henri Charriere
Word substitution / wordsmithing.; insertion of Edit within text

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/6/2024 at 2:36 PM, VKurtB said:

The post-war Swiss Vrenellis (1947B and 1949B) were allegedly made from Holocaust victims' gold false teeth removed by the Nazis. 

As sick as it is, probably could say that about lots of post-1945 Euroepan gold coins/bars.

This was one of the themes underlining the 1976 thriller, MARATHON MAN starring Sir Lawrence Olivier, Dustin Hoffman, and Roy Scheider.  GREAT movie !! 

"Is it safe...."  

Edited May 7 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 5/6/2024 at 8:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

As sick as it is, probably could say that about lots of post-1945 Euroepan gold coins/bars.

Indeed. And likely with good reason, 

[Henri Charriere]

  Q.A.:  I understand you solved a mystery that's been dogging me for the past five years!  Every source I have consulted said the composition of F20F GRs, "original" and "restrike" is comprised of the same exact composition; 90% gold and 10% copper. Your research indicates otherwise!

🐓:  Correctamundo!  Allow me to add a few facts.  "In 1905, the law separating church and state was passed.  The change in legislation led to a change in the motto on the edge of the 20-Francs Maranne Coq coin in 1907 "Dieu Protege la France" ("God Protect France") was replaced by ("Liberte, equalite, fraternite").  In addition, the label wreath was replaced by an oak branch as if to anchor the power of a strong state.

"In terms of size and weight, the Marianne Coq 20-Francs coin is based on the standard 20-Francs coin created by Napoleon I.  It weighs 6.45 grams, is 90% pure gold, i.e., a fine gold weight of 5.81 g. with a diameter of 21 millimeters and a thickness of 1.25 mm.

(Now we come to the fresh information, dug up by Ricky, an inquisitive Rooster if ever there was one...)

The "refrappes Pinay"

"The Marianne Coq coin is also historically exceptional, as it was melted again between 1951 and 1960 in what is known [locally] as the Pinay re-strike.

"In 1948, at the end of the Second World War, gold stocks had been melted down or lost, and coins were badly damaged or cropped. The Banque de France decided to reopen the gold market to revitalize the economy.  To do so, it restruck the popular coin that symbolized strong power:  the Marianne Coq.

"The original dies were used and earlier engraved images were reused. Between 1950 and 1960, 37 million 20 francs Marianne Coq gold coins were re-engraved dating from 1907 to 1914.

"How to recognize them?  In theory, it is difficult to tell the difference berween Pinay refrappes and originals.  However, most of them are in excellent condition, having never been in circulation.  As the machines used for minting are not the same, more precise details can be seen on the Pinay refrapees.  Finally, a mass spectrometer analysis reveals a slightly different metallic composition between the origInal 20 francs coq and the refrappes.  On average the original coins contain 902.63 thousands of gold compared with 900.39 thousandths of gold for the refrapees.  This results in hue and a slightly more coppery color.  (Emphases in bold, throughout, are mine.)

Q.A. Great job!  Before you run off on your next project...any References?

🐓  : Yes. Thomas Numismatics (which lists the five sources they relied on on their website: thomasnumismatics.com

(Posted with the express cooperation and patience of NGC Moderation which  retains the right to edit or delete this post as it sees fit, at their discretion.)

[Henri Charriere]

🐓:  The spot silver price as of today, Friday, May 17, 2024 is:  $ 31.48.

The gold melt value of a French 20-francs gold rooster is;  $ 445.88.

To be blunt about it, as silver moves above $30/oz., it is virtually impossible to purchase one -- any date, any condition -- for less than $500., and if you do it is simply because the seller is unaware of the incremental increases in price recently.