French 20-franc gold rooster 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/29/2023 at 5:57 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I agree unequivocally and I have consulted a number of obscure sources.  A distinction must be made between "circulation" strikes and what I refer to as "specialty" strikes, which includes various patterns, essai piedforts and those 9,443 matte proofs all dated 1900.  Amongst circulation strikes, all fall with the range $1K to $2K. Amongst the specialty coins, none I am aware of exceeded Liberty Coin's [non-auction] sale price of $24,400 for a 1900 PF-67 which languished on eBay for over a year before being either sold or withdrawn from sale a few years back.

Saw a SP-65 1899 10 Franc coin that sold in August 2022 for $5,520.  Another a few years earlier with same grade for virtually the same figure.

A 1908 MS-66 for $764 back in 2015 when gold was a bunch cheaper.  GAD 1065-a.... whatever that means.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/29/2023 at 8:23 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Saw a SP-65 1899 10 Franc coin that sold in August 2022 for $5,520.  Another a few years earlier with same grade for virtually the same figure.

A 1908 MS-66 for $764 back in 2015 when gold was a bunch cheaper.  GAD 1065-a.... whatever that means.

I bought the 1908 F20FG MS-66 now in my NGC Set Registry from a dealer in Winter Springs, FL for $637.50 in April 2019.  I bought the 1908 MS-66+ now in my other set from France for USD 777. in the same year.  Re the notation GAD, the 1065 (which appears on certifications made in the Europe office) refers to the original parallel 10-franc roosters (with some years missing). The suffix -a refers to the restrikes. I know nothing about the 10-Franc series.

The French 20-franc  gold rooster series was assigned the internationally recognized catalogue number: KM: 857.

The Originals (1899-1906) bear a classification number developed by Victor Gadoury: GAD:1064.

The Restrikes (1907-1914) were classified as GAD:1064-a.  Victor Gadoury's name appears on the French Red Book, Monnaies Francaises.  Every French coin minted from 1789 to the present has been assigned a catalogue number. I would imagine every world coin has been assigned an identifying world catalog number that is recognized and accepted by all.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Routine die-polishing.

[zadok]

On 10/29/2023 at 8:22 PM, Henri Charriere said:

VIEWER DISCRETION IS ADVISED!... old thread (07/05/20) critiqued.

A Guide to selected excerpts: The first paragraph contains the first reply to the first question posed in my first post on a topic posted after becoming a member.  Its author was none other than the Grand Master, RWB. Some 3 years later, no "Original," [1899-1906] Gold Rooster has been graded MS-67 by any TPGS and RWB's stance presumably remains unchanged. (The status of top-tier "Restrike" [1907-1914] coins, particularly at NGC, has changed exponentially.)

The second paragraph contains the retort of a member who unfortunately hasn't been heard from in awhile.

The third and final paragraph, and more particularly its tantalizing reply, remains shrouded in mystery. I have from time to time asked Cowboy to elaborate on "the real reason why", via PM, to no avail.

I have two theories spurred by the two certifications of restrikes graded MS-68 ATS.  They occurred in a vacuum without advance public notice of availability or subsequent public notice of certification, beyond a census.  Their swift cross-grading at NGC suggests the owner(s) is a collector, as opposed to a dealer.  The Great Zadok's prognostication that they will not appear on any Set Registry and may not surface again, if ever, remains true.  My theory as regarding the top-tier Gold Rooster certification juggernaut ATS I attribute -- without a shred of evidence to support my claim, to my belief that, of the various gold hoards uncovered in Europe recently, one was snapped up by a conglomerate of numismatist-investors who recognized their quality as limited circulation pieces that would make them promising candidates for certification. (I would be curious to know whether they were certified overseas, or state-side.

 

 

...ngc has no obligation to provide public notice of any grading, their census of grading is provided as a service to collectors...the only times i have seen a public release of grading has been when an ultra rarity or previously unknown example of such has been graded e.g. 1894-S dime, 1876-CC twenty cent, n im sure the owners authorized the public  releases...as far as i am aware all grading by ngc is conducted in sarasota fl, ngc does periodically schedule grading "events" in munich, berlin, london etc but otherwise grade the european submitted coins at their US location...if this policy has changed i have not seen any published announcements to that effect...the top-pop grading of the two roosters would be considered inconsequential the same as the top-pop grading of a few irish republic coins in the same grades....

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/28/2023 at 5:51 AM, Henri Charriere said:

FRANCE 20-FRANC [GOLD ROOSTER - KM: 857]

$500.00

-NGC WORLD COIN PRICE GUIDE, as of this writing.

NOT $600, $700, $800, $900, $1000, $1100, $1200, $1300, $1400, $1500, $1600, $1700, $1800 or $1825, or $1850, or $1875.

The figure given by the Price Guide is in accord with current MA-SHOP listings and prices provided in this thread last Tuesday:

MS62 - $472.22

[MS63 - $500.00]

MS64 - $725.35

MS-65 - 947.74

 

UPDATE:  I re-wrote the seller and reported the item again and received a terse reply from the seller:

"For MS63 a Fair Market Value is $875."

Nevertheless, the seller persists in listing his coin at $1900.  (The name of the seller is N_Y_Gold_Market. He joined eBay a year ago and his reviews are less than stellar.)

Edited October 30, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Correction.

[Henri Charriere]

LATEST UPDATE received a few moments ago...

After making good on my promise to report the seller to eBay and publicize the seller's listing which I found lacked a single redeeming factor [in language I have ample reason to believe our Dena would find objectionable on this Forum] it gives me great pleasure to inform the membership the seller of the 1906 French 20-franc gold rooster NGC-certified with a grade of MS-63 [having previously claimed the FMV of the coin was $875.] announced a revised selling price of $700 from the initially advertised $1,900 -- effectively effecting a 63% price reduction.

Note:  I credit member Just Bob for the inspiration to expose those whose dishonest business practices reflect poorly on the hobby as a whole. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Insert a closing bracket.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/30/2023 at 8:48 AM, zadok said:

...as far as i am aware all grading by ngc is conducted in sarasota fl,

ngc does periodically schedule grading "events" in munich, berlin, london etc but otherwise grade the european submitted coins at their US location...

if this policy has changed i have not seen any published announcements to that effect....

NGC, NCS and PMG maintain four (4) official submission centers in London, Munich, Shanghai and Hong Kong as well as a global network of authorized dealers in over a dozen countries, eight in mainland Red China alone.

By the way, what're the international turn-around times for the various tiers and services for a coin submitted to Sarasota from Sarajevo?      

[zadok]

On 11/2/2023 at 8:02 PM, Henri Charriere said:

NGC, NCS and PMG maintain four (4) official submission centers in London, Munich, Shanghai and Hong Kong as well as a global network of authorized dealers in over a dozen countries, eight in mainland Red China alone.

By the way, what're the international turn-around times for the various tiers and services for a coin submitted to Sarasota from Sarajevo?      

...smell the roses...grading n submissions r not the same thing...my exact operative words were "grading" n "conducted"...not being "submitted"....

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:03 PM, zadok said:

...smell the roses...grading n submissions r not the same thing...my exact operative words were "grading" n "conducted"...not being "submitted"....

I believe you are taking advantage of the fact that I am new to the hobby having been involved in coin collecting only fifty years, or half as many as you have.  

Am I to believe NGC, or any of its acronymical affiliates "grade" coins without authenticating or encapsulating them? When EC requested PCGS certify his '33 minus formal certification and all it implies, the departure from S.O.P was noteworthy enough to merit a mention in numismatic circles from coast-to-coast.

I want to go on record as stating, nay, insisting, that no formal grading takes place in the absence of formal submission and payment of fees and in the highly unlikely chance I am sadly mistaken or misinformed, will surrender my Rising Star -- and resign my commission, forthwith.

My apologies to the OP for -- hold on, I AM THE OP!  🤣

[zadok]

On 11/3/2023 at 3:18 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I believe you are taking advantage of the fact that I am new to the hobby having been involved in coin collecting only fifty years, or half as many as you have.  

Am I to believe NGC, or any of its acronymical affiliates "grade" coins without authenticating or encapsulating them? When EC requested PCGS certify his '33 minus formal certification and all it implies, the departure from S.O.P was noteworthy enough to merit a mention in numismatic circles from coast-to-coast.

I want to go on record as stating, nay, insisting, that no formal grading takes place in the absence of formal submission and payment of fees and in the highly unlikely chance I am sadly mistaken or misinformed, will surrender my Rising Star -- and resign my commission, forthwith.

My apologies to the OP for -- hold on, I AM THE OP!  🤣

...u r kamaling again...best u go back to the kiddie end of the pool...way in over ur head....

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/3/2023 at 8:20 PM, zadok said:

...u r kamaling again...best u go back to the kiddie end of the pool...way in over ur head....

Asa Hutchinson won't be on the ballot but that won't stop me from writing him in.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/3/2023 at 9:15 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Asa Hutchinson won't be on the ballot but that won't stop me from writing him in.

Is he the defensive end for the Lions ? 

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/4/2023 at 12:01 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is he the defensive end for the Lions ? 

 No, a former administrator of the DEA and CBP and one-time governor of Arkansas. Unfortunately, he did not speak up at the debates and is a relative unknown, but I figure his experience qualifies him to deal with drug cartels and migrants at the Southern border.

 

[Henri Charriere]

 FWIW regarding F20FGR set registrants...

On the East coast, 74 collectors collect Gold Roosters but only 49 are listed on the Set Registry website. [If am mistaken, I will retract the sadly mistaken assertion.] Interestingly, some of the minor collectors in this 16-coin series possess coins none of the top ten have. And the two top sets are still incomplete, as of this writing, presumably waiting until a highly-graded specimen becomes available than acquire a lesser, place filler coin, which would jeopardize their set rating and [possibly] top ten ranking.

On the West Coast, there are only 13 Gold Rooster sets registered and listed as "Current Finest."  Coincidentally, or not, 7 also comprise the "All-Time Finest" (All Eras.)...  in order of rank.

It is fairly easy to deduce who the potential whales are. They settle early on on the highest grades available and, because many share the Hansen gene and are compiling several sets simulataneously, are in no hurry to complete their sets. 

I look forward to taking my sets down at the appropriate interval to allow the gentlemen currently occupying the # 11th rank to assume elevation to the Top Ten sets, and the # 2 man on the West coast, whose set I admire greatly, to ascend to the # 1 spot.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Routine die-polishing.

[cobymordet]

It's 3:00am and I am bored and need a mystery.  So here is some completely irrelevant information:

Ben Wengel, Senior Finalizer of World Coins

Ben Wengel's interest in coins began early. By age 16, he had attended the ANA Summer Seminar and completed a six-week summer internship at NGC. After graduation from the University of Tampa, Ben joined NGC on a full-time basis and has now graded coins for NGC for more than a decade. In 2020, he became Senior Finalizer of World Coins. Based at NGC's headquarters, Ben has also graded at NGC on-site in the United States, Germany and China. His collecting interests include silver and gold coins from South and Central America.

I was unable to locate concrete evidence of specific grading locations so I decided to email NGC directly and inquire as to where exactly coins are graded. 

As soon as I get a reply, I will post it forthwith and post-haste.  (I have always wanted to say that)

I will now retire to eat my Post Toasties, no need to post a toast though.  Carry on, Coin Nutz! 

Edited November 10, 2023 by cobymordet
it was 2:30am when I started down this rabbit-hole.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/30/2023 at 8:48 AM, zadok said:

...as far as i am aware all grading by ngc is conducted in sarasota fl,....

If the following is true, and I have no basis to doubt it, I owe the Great Zadok a heartfelt apology...

According to an official dispatch posted 11/13/2023 (yesterday) and entitled: "CCG (Certified Collectibles Group) to open Dubai office in 2024"...

"Collectibles submitted to CCG's Dubai office will be transported with full insurance coverage (based on the submitters declared value) to CCG Headquarters [Sarasota] for authentication, grading and encapsulation. The collectibles will then be transported back to the Dubai office (again with full insurance coverage) to be returned to the submitter."

One could argue this news flash only pertains to CCG and not NGC, but it is clear that, by extension, it would apply to coins as well and to other collectibles submitted to overseas offices.

Accordingly, I retract my uninformed assumption and offer to member z my sincerest apologies.  

[cobymordet]

Good sir, doth the rooster crow too soon?

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:49 PM, cobymordet said:

Good sir, doth the rooster crow too soon?

Time will tell.

[Henri Charriere]

Monnaies Francaises, 1789-2023, 26th (50 Anniversary) edition

The latest edition of the "French Red Book" has just been released, according to informed sources, and is winging its way to the U.S.A.

The price, $49.95, is unchanged; shipping & handling is $6.00.

From the flyer:  "Monnaies Francaises has been the Bible for the coins of modern France since it was first published in 1973...." new chapters, many new photos. Also: Metal, fineness, weight, diameter, edge, engraver's name and privy marks. 696 pages, all in color. Hard-bound. Published by Editions Victor Gadoury, Monaco. Published every two years, in French, a copy of "Le Rouge" (The Red) may be obtained through the Coin & Currency Institute...  E-mail:  mail@coin-currency.com.  Or call toll-free 1-800-431-1866 or order online:  www.coin-currency.com

Note:  Once again, I credit a member, the venerable VKurtB, for bringing to my attention the existence of a book I was completely oblivious to despite my sixty intermittent years of involvement in the hobby, the last five devoted exclusively to compiling a complete set of French 20-franc gold roosters.

 

[Henri Charriere]

As most collectors of this series are aware, the minimal price of any rooster, irrespective of grade, is $400. now that gold spot has risen past $2,000./oz.

Aside from price, a disturbing trend has emerged abroad best exemplified by the following routine listing from a company advertising its coin with MA-SHOPS. I PITY THE COLLECTOR WHO BUYS RAW FROM ABROAD WHERE CERTIFICATIONS APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN LARGELY ABANDONED. EXAMINE THE QUANDARY OF THE COLLECTOR WHO MUST DECIPHER THE FOLLOWING LISTING:

THE FRENCH 20-FRANCS GOLD ROOSTER IS KNOWN BY DIFFERENT NAMES BY EVERY COUNTRY. THE CLUE COMES WITH THE GRADE.  A SPECIFIC COIN'S GRADE WAS IDENTIFIED BY THE FOLLOWING ACRONYMS: "SUP/FDC/EF."  It's price is USD 625.98, so you must decipher the grade before you make a decision as to whether this coin is for you.

SUP stands for SUPERBE in French whose U.S. equivalent is AU -55 to MS-62. Next is FDC. It is French for Fleur de Coin, or Flower of Coin whose French and Italian U.S. equivalent is MS-65 to MS-70.  Finally, is EF whose British and U.S. equivalents are 55-62 and 40, respectively. All three are lumped incongruously and unhelpfully together.

I bring this to your attention because it's not like you can pick up the phone and call someone to help you. You are on your own.  The date is not important. That is not the problem, the condition of the coin is and it ranges from a minimum of 40 to a maximum of 70. No one expects any coin struck for circulation to grade MS-70 but barring certification, which the seller evidently does not wish to assume the financial burden of, what do you do?

Language, too, is critical.  If learning new terminology is too tedious for you, gold roosters are not your cup of tea. So what do you do?  What can you do?  In any event, that is the reality facing collectors of this series today.  There are 10 times as many F20F gold rooster set registrants here, than there -- and spot gold is on the move.  I wish all my fellow collectors the best of luck!  🐓 

 

[VKurtB]

On 12/9/2023 at 7:02 AM, Henri Charriere said:

As most collectors of this series are aware, the minimal price of any rooster, irrespective of grade, is $400. now that gold spot has risen past $2,000./oz.

Aside from price, a disturbing trend has emerged abroad best exemplified by the following routine listing from a company advertising its coin with MA-SHOPS. I PITY THE COLLECTOR WHO BUYS RAW FROM ABROAD WHERE CERTIFICATIONS APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN LARGELY ABANDONED. EXAMINE THE QUANDARY OF THE COLLECTOR WHO MUST DECIPHER THE FOLLOWING LISTING:

THE FRENCH 20-FRANCS GOLD ROOSTER IS KNOWN BY DIFFERENT NAMES BY EVERY COUNTRY. THE CLUE COMES WITH THE GRADE.  A SPECIFIC COIN'S GRADE WAS IDENTIFIED BY THE FOLLOWING ACRONYMS: "SUP/FDC/EF."  It's price is USD 625.98, so you must decipher the grade before you make a decision as to whether this coin is for you.

SUP stands for SUPERBE in French whose U.S. equivalent is AU -55 to MS-62. Next is FDC. It is French for Fleur de Coin, or Flower of Coin whose French and Italian U.S. equivalent is MS-65 to MS-70.  Finally, is EF whose British and U.S. equivalents are 55-62 and 40, respectively. All three are lumped incongruously and unhelpfully together.

I bring this to your attention because it's not like you can pick up the phone and call someone to help you. You are on your own.  The date is not important. That is not the problem, the condition of the coin is and it ranges from a minimum of 40 to a maximum of 70. No one expects any coin struck for circulation to grade MS-70 but barring certification, which the seller evidently does not wish to assume the financial burden of, what do you do?

Language, too, is critical.  If learning new terminology is too tedious for you, gold roosters are not your cup of tea. So what do you do?  What can you do?  In any event, that is the reality facing collectors of this series today.  There are 10 times as many F20F gold rooster set registrants here, than there -- and spot gold is on the move.  I wish all my fellow collectors the best of luck!  🐓 

 

Just call them all Stempelglanz or Fleur du Coin, declare victory, and march from the field. France is not big on picking the nits that the American hobby apparently needs to engage in "appendage measuring" Registry sets. A VERRRRRRY low percentage of coins at Coinex London were entombed in plastic, and I expect to find an even LOWER percentage in plastic at Berlin in February. "Have passport, will travel". Or am I just a secret CIA assassin traveling under cover of a globe-trotting numismatist? "My name? Bellman..., Kurt Bellman." Keep in mind  that I was in Paris the same time that King Charles III was. Coincidence? Oh my GAWD yes.

Edited December 10, 2023 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 12/9/2023 at 9:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Just call them all Stempelglanz or Fleur du Coin, declare victory, and march from the field. France is not big on picking the nits that the American hobby apparently needs to engage in "appendage measuring" Registry sets. A VERRRRRRY low percentage of coins at Coinex London were entombed in plastic, and I expect to find an even LOWER percentage in plastic at Berlin in February. "Have passport, will travel". Or am I just a secret CIA assassin traveling under cover of a globe-trotting numismatist? "My name? Bellman..., Kurt Bellman." Keep in mind  that I was in Paris the same time that King Charles III was. Coincidence? Oh my GAWD yes.

...ok, Richard Boone is turning over in his grave now...as for Paris, my understanding is they were seeking an escort for Camilla n the only taker was a lost tourist from Alabama....

[Henri Charriere]

🐓:  NOT FOR FRENCH 20-FRANCS GOLD ROOSTER SET REGISTRANTS ONLY...

If you are a collector of the above series and have experienced difficulty in locating the "Originals" (1899-1906) you may or may not know that many reside overseas, primarily in France (try: cgb.fr) and Germany.

if you choose the latter, try searching for "MA-SHOPS - Gold Coins." In their internal search space, type in: Coq Marianne. An entire page of listings for 10- and 20-Francs roosters should appear embracing the entire series in a variety of available dates, grades and prices (usually euros).

As noted in an earlier post, it appears as though European dealers have quietly abandoned the Sheldon scale (and certification) deferring to the scales used by their respective countries. Malhereusement (unfortunately) English is of limited utility and making matters worse, if you do not type in the key words and phrases some dealers use, you will be stymied in your search. "III Republic" is one, the other is "Dieu Protege France," or God Protect France.

I have navigated the listings of several countries and some are more accommodating than others. Certified, encapsulated coins by four TPGS continue to be listed and sold, but it appears the stock now being sold is predominantly raw. 

If the aforementioned information I have provided helps one fellow member to take the initiative and carpe diem (seize the day) my efforts over the last five years will have been well worth it.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:32 PM, zadok said:

...ok, Richard Boone is turning over in his grave now...

I never heard or saw that show until a few months ago.....runs on MeTV.....guess it was pretty popular in the late-1950's/early-1960's.  

Those Westerns had damn good writing and you saw ALL your favorite future TV/Movie stars in them, too.  I never saw these in re-runs growing up in the 1970's for the most part.

[Henri Charriere]

🐓  Astonishly shameful that members, breaking with long-standing tradition, introduce miscellaneous extraneous references that bear no relation to the subject under hand, desecrating a thread ,at will. Divulging [one of many secret sources.which is why 83% of Set Registrants  and collectors are unable to complete their sets] is a rarely performed act of public service which many would regard as against interest.  I can indulge, because my life's work is over.  I do not regard competition as a threat.

Back on Track, gentlemen!

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/9/2023 at 9:08 PM, VKurtB said:

"... am I just a secret CIA assassin traveling under cover of a globe-trotting numismatist? "My name? Bellman..., Kurt Bellman." Keep in mind  that I was in Paris the same time that King Charles III was. Coincidence? Oh my GAWD yes.

In my mind's eye, you are in Germany for the sole purpose of determining why the streets in Mannheim are lettered and numbered, and not named.  You are in your element, no question about it.  🤣

[VKurtB]

On 2/2/2024 at 8:23 AM, Henri Charriere said:

In my mind's eye, you are in Germany for the sole purpose of determining why the streets in Mannheim are lettered and numbered, and not named.  You are in your element, no question about it.  🤣

As a Noo Yawkuh, you should talk. Funny, Arab, Alabama is that way too. I won’t get to Mannheim this trip. I don’t have my steamroller. Everything in this neighborhood is VERY near the boundaries of the old American and Soviet zones. It’s interesting to pick out the actual lines. The old Soviet zone has a great building boom going on, office towers galore. 

Edited February 3 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/5/2020 at 1:10 PM, RWB said:

Maybe there remains a shred of honest, accurate grading for some of the more common gold coins? If the least marked-up piece is accurately graded MS-65, then so be it.

Some 3-1/2 years later, and your observation is as valid as ever. The number of Set Registrants of F20F GRs here has shot up to 80; on the West Coast the present number here is 13.

If you were to review their holdings, by my estimate, 83% continue to remain dormant.  NGC has erected a glass wall at the demarcation line between MS-66 and MS-67 and not a few at MS-67+ pieces have been graded.  PCGS' wall is impregnable. Only a dozen or less for all "restrike" dates.

The pickings in the U.S., particularly of the older "Originals" are, as always, slim. The pickings in France and Germany are a lot better, but certifications by sellers of all the major TPGS, have largely been abandoned.  My only option, mired as I am in the French graders' FDC, "Fleurs de Coin" which embraces every Mint State coin from MS-65 to MS-70, is to continue waiting like everyone else or take a chance, purchase an FDC (relying on photos and faith, ald little else) and submit it here for cross-grading.  Your average collector is wary of overseas buying and navigating all the different languages and grading systems in use.

Incidentally, as initially pointed out in my opening post, as regarding the Originals, which comprise half the 16-coin series, 1899-1906, to date, no 20-franc rooster appears to have been graded MS-67.  By anyone.

I continue to appreciate your running commentary!

Edited February 9 by Henri Charriere
Usual die polishing.

[zadok]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:46 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Some 3-1/2 years later, and your observation is as valid as ever. The number of Set Registrants of F20F GRs here has shot up to 80; on the West Coast the present number is 13.

If you were to review their holdings, by my estimate, 83% continue to remain dormant.  NGC has erected a glass wall at the demarcation line between MS-66 and MS-67 and not a few at MS-67+ pieces have been graded.  PCGS' wall is impregnable. Only a dozen or less for all "restrike" dates.

The pickings in the U.S., particularly of the older "Originals" are, as always, slim. The pickings in France and Germany are a lot better, but certifications by sellers of all the major TPGS, have largely been abandoned.  My only option, mired as I am in the French graders' FDC, "Fleurs de Coin" which embraces every Mint State coin from MS-65 to MS-70, is to continue waiting like everyone else or take a chance, purchase an FDC (relying on photos and faith, ald little else) and submit it here for cross-grading.  Your average collector is wary of overseas buying and navigating all the different languages and grading systems in use.

Incidentally, as initially pointed out in my opening post, as regarding the Originals, which comprise half the 16-coin series, 1899-1906, to date, no 20-franc rooster appears to have been graded MS-67.  By anyone.

I continue to appreciate your running commentary!

...44 months...id say crawling rather than running....

[Henri Charriere]

Happy Valentine's Day!  I continue to review MA-SHOPS listings and the sparce holdings of Set Registrants particularly at the 1899-1906 Original vs 1907-1914 Restrike line of partition.

The latter are easy to acquire; the former pose an arduous task.  I suspect most active collectors guard their sources zealously. Not me.

If you wish to acquire an "Original" 20-franc gold rooster, it behooves you to investigate the above-referenced source, one of NGC's sponsors within a stone's throw of their state-side office, and on their home page plug in any number of combinations of 10- and/or 20-franc Marianne Coq.  Within seconds, at least 50 listings will pop up.  Sadly  the majority, unlike in the recent past, will be available raw (uncertified) The certified examples are listed, for the most part, at the bottom.

If a type set in Mint State is what you are looking for, make a note of the listings for BU.  If you require specifics, you cannot go wrong with the standard ranges the French use: 

SUP (Superbe) USA: AU-55 - MS-62;  SPL (Splendide)  "   : MS-63 - MS-64;  FDC (Fleur de Coin): MS-65 - MS-70.

The manner in which purveyors of high-quality pieces sell their merchandise from a hundred different dealers of all manner of things, makes assembling a collection of gold roosters possible, but lacking saturation with certified examples, more labor-intensive.  If you are simply looking to compile a type set, you're In Like Flint.  If you have set your sets higher, you can expect to wait for a suitable prospect to show up.  I myself have been waiting for upgrades to show up for at least two years.  Excelsior!  Ever upward, is my motto.

[Henri Charriere]

"C O U N T E R F E I T    F O R G E R Y" !

The listing format is identical to all others at www.numiscorner.com except for date, weight and the above descriptor:

France - Marianne - 20-Francs- 1904 - Paris - EF (40-45) - Gold - Contemporary Forgery.   Price:  €500 (about $538.37).

All the specs are identical, save for one:  instead of the standard 6.45 gms, the weight is 6.33 gms.  The finess, oddly, remains the same: .9000000000000000002, precisely.

Photos are provided which I have pored over. There appears to be a deep abrasion to Marianne's cheek which can best be described as an injury that would typically be left after one uses a broken bottle for a shaver.

Interestingly, the two devices, a torch and cornucopia, which had been recently been added to the series as anti-counterfeiting measures, are present on either side of the date, as expected.

One more curious note...  it reads, "If you so wish, you can order a Certificate of Authenticity or grading for this collectible item after adding it to your cart."  This is a highly-regarded seller!

There are three (actually four) primary reasons preventing me from acquiring this unique item I had only read about in passing but never lay eyes on.  The first three are RWB, powermad5000 and Just Bob, all charter members of the Forum's influential Anti-Counterfeiting League. The fourth is, there is no slot for it on the Set Registry (and I would be too embarrassed to Ask Ali E to consider creating one).

You read it here first!