Great story about recently discovered gold coin stash in California

[GoldFinger1969]

The only dog I have in this race that the value of my 1873 double eagle in MS-63 will probably drop in value because of this hoard. Beyond that, when I see an 1866-S double eagle in MS-62+, do I think that a crooked mint employee would be able to pull a coin like that out of bag of double eagles in 1898? NOT LIKELY! Why is the Dahlonega coin circulated and the San Francisco coins in Mint State? The Dahlonega coin was minted before 1862 and chances are it was in circulation for time on its 19th century trip to California. Do I have to state the obvious? Why do you people always want the government involved every time a private citizen does well or gets a lucky break? Do you think you are entitled to a cut because that person did well, and you deserve a piece of it? What is wrong with you? Aren't the taxes these people are going to have pay from the profits they make enough for you? This "share the wealth" mentality is ruining this country.

 

(thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u

[Walkerfan]

The only dog I have in this race that the value of my 1873 double eagle in MS-63 will probably drop in value because of this hoard. Beyond that, when I see an 1866-S double eagle in MS-62+, do I think that a crooked mint employee would be able to pull a coin like that out of bag of double eagles in 1898? NOT LIKELY! Why is the Dahlonega coin circulated and the San Francisco coins in Mint State? The Dahlonega coin was minted before 1862 and chances are it was in circulation for time on its 19th century trip to California. Do I have to state the obvious? Why do you people always want the government involved every time a private citizen does well or gets a lucky break? Do you think you are entitled to a cut because that person did well, and you deserve a piece of it? What is wrong with you? Aren't the taxes these people are going to have pay from the profits they make enough for you? This "share the wealth" mentality is ruining this country.

 

(thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u

 

I really hope that these people get to keep their coins. I think that they deserve them and should NOT have to 'share' with anyone. BUT you are fooling yourself if you don't even entertain the possibility of the government trying to get involved and/or trying to take it away. It shouldn't be this way but it, many times, is this way, unfortunately.

[Raisethis2]

Why this story ever became public knowledge so soon after grading but before disposal is just beyond me. Who's advising these people? Don't they know history repeats itself?

[BillJones]

Why this story ever became public knowledge so soon after grading but before disposal is just beyond me. Who's advising these people? Don't they know history repeats itself?

 

It is hard to keep a lid on a story like this, and now the Kagins are promoting the coins among collectors to maximize the selling prices. Publicity is a double edged sword.

[MarkW]

I think W.K.F. visited California and felt is was a good place to bury some of his coins. After all it is safer than a safe deposit box.

[bsshog40]

I wonder also, even though this was found and unless I missed it somewhere, will the coins be taxed also? Like as income?

[bsshog40]

Well this was linked from Fox News ATS. I think this answers my question!

 

"One couple's gold find could mean a jackpot for the IRS.

 

The Northern California couple that found $10 million worth of rare, mint-condition gold coins buried in the shadow of an old tree on their property will likely owe about half the find's value whether they sell the gold or not.

 

The San Francisco Chronicle reports that the find is a taxable event under a 1969 federal court ruling that held a "treasure trove" is taxable the year it was discovered.

 

"If you find and keep property that does not belong to you that has been lost or abandoned (treasure-trove), it is taxable to you at its fair market value in the first year it is your undisputed possession,” the report said, citing the IRS tax guide."

 

 

[mtnstyne]

They should get to keep the coins and this case would be immensely more difficult to prove by the government. These aren't coins that were all supposedly melted down like the Langbord 1933 Double Eagles. IF the 8 cans contained coins that were never otherwise released into circulation the government might have a case, but there is just too many other solutions to why these coins ended up in the ground.

 

 

[Raisethis2]

I blame D.B. Cooper.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

They should get to keep the coins and this case would be immensely more difficult to prove by the government. These aren't coins that were all supposedly melted down like the Langbord 1933 Double Eagles. IF the 8 cans contained coins that were never otherwise released into circulation the government might have a case, but there is just too many other solutions to why these coins ended up in the ground.

 

 

Your last sentance is a good one.

 

I just wonder if one of those solutions is the possibility of a little bit of Irish Blarney in this story, coupled with a little piece of P.T. Barnum, and a touch of Mark Twain.

[CaptHenway]

100

[Hard Times]

The only problem I have is that the numbers don't add up - 1427 mostly double eagles in 8 cans some the size of campbell's soup cans, take a look at the size of the cans - we are talking about 180 per can but the cans look too small - sorry if this was brought up earlier but it just does not add up...

 

Best, HT

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

The only problem I have is that the numbers don't add up - 1427 mostly double eagles in 8 cans some the size of campbell's soup cans, take a look at the size of the cans - we are talking about 180 per can but the cans look too small - sorry if this was brought up earlier but it just does not add up...

 

Best, HT

 

Irish Pub Stories...the stuff of legends.

[GoldFinger1969]

FWIW, I have never heard of Kagin's and am surprised if they have a great reputation why they are selling the lot on Amazon. Maybe there's some tax or fee thing I am missing. Whatever...

 

That said....I can't help but think that the Saddle Ridge Coins will be VASTLY OVERPRICED as were the SS Central America Coins (feel free to tell me how other hoards turned out). Despite gold going up over 4-fold, many people are DOWN on their purchases.

 

My cousin bought a $10 SS CA gold coin and I think he's flat or up a smidge. The $50 Commemoratives (new strikes featuring old gold) were originally sold for $5,000 despite only holding about $750 in gold, a huge premium. A few just sold on Ebay for about $4,000 and I bought one a few years ago for a bit higher when gold was closer to $1,600. I paid about a 12% premium so I did OK.

 

The point is, anything new (and I see this all the time with newly-issued financial products like closed-end funds) tends to be bid up and the local news accounts in the are of the find are likely to be even more impressionable than the SS Central America news stories, which involved a find 7,000 feet under water off the coast of the U.S. This was in someone's back yard....we'll see news stories with quotes saying that coins are a great investment....people will be told gold is off 30% and is cheap....lots of small investors will probably buy (maybe the reason they're going with Amazon -- free 2-day shipping through Prime ?). You wonder if these will turn out to be good investments, flat investments, or if people will be buried for years like the buyers of most of the SS Central America stuff.

 

Even if I was flush with cash -- which I'm not -- I would be staying away unless I was desperate for 1 namesake or a particular coin/year.

[JIM F.]

Just wait until the late night telemarketers get their allotment.

[GoldFinger1969]

Just wait until the late night telemarketers get their allotment.

 

They shouldn't be included 1st-hand...they may buy some coins and mark them up, but hopefully at least people will price-shop and buy from someone who bought directly from Kagin and/or from Amazon.com.

[e1cnr]

I am sure there will be a huge markup for the providence / label.

 

 

What was that shipwreck they found and sold lots of NGC 'shipwreck' effect coins in a fancy box. There were some rarities, but much of what I saw was AU pitted stuff that I would not want.

 

For those wanting to give this find back to the government, it looks like state of CA and IRS may be getting close to half in USD for taxes (although it seems like an accounting/valuation nightmare)

[GoldFinger1969]

I am sure there will be a huge markup for the providence / label.

What was that shipwreck they found and sold lots of NGC 'shipwreck' effect coins in a fancy box. There were some rarities, but much of what I saw was AU pitted stuff that I would not want. For those wanting to give this find back to the government, it looks like state of CA and IRS may be getting close to half in USD for taxes (although it seems like an accounting/valuation nightmare)

 

The family should have moved to Florida last year for 183 days and they would have probably saved close to $1,500,000 in state income taxes.

 

The shipwreck I think you are talking about was the SS Central America which went down in 1857. My $50 'Quintuple' Eagle is graded by PCGS. I think my cousin's authentic AU-57 $10 Eagle is also graded by PCGS. My $50 coin is in a regular PCGS slab and that was inside a heavy glass-encased display, which was in a box with a holder and some other stuff.

[cpm9ball]

What was that shipwreck they found and sold lots of NGC 'shipwreck' effect coins in a fancy box.

 

I believe those were coins from the SS Republic.

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

FWIW, I have never heard of Kagin's and am surprised if they have a great reputation why they are selling the lot on Amazon.

 

Someone from another forum mentioned that Kagin's was at the Atlanta ANA(?) offering some of these coins, but I don't have any details.

 

Chris

[Nutmeg Coin]

FWIW, I have never heard of Kagin's and am surprised if they have a great reputation why they are selling the lot on Amazon.

 

Someone from another forum mentioned that Kagin's was at the Atlanta ANA(?) offering some of these coins, but I don't have any details.

 

Chris

 

I don't think they are for sale yet, the promotion is only a few days old. No inventory list has been provided yet of all those $20 Liberty coins.

 

New items keep raising questions like this one yesterday, suggesting that the couple were required by law to report the find: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570203/EXCLUSIVE-Couple-10m-hoard-gold-coins-walking-dog-broke-law.html

[RWB]

Well, there certainly is a lot of speculation floating around. That's fun to do, but hardly a way to develop a factual discussion. As for the Dimmick defalcation - that took place 7 years later and involved 6 bags of double eagles. Since the theft occurred from an overcrowded vault containing current production, the coins would likely have been dated 1900-S, 1901-S (June 30 - end of FY 1901). Dimmick also redirected checks and did other things to supplement his activities. Superintendent Leach sold his house in 1904 to repay the bond company $25,000.

 

It is most likely this was a private hiding place for someone who later died without disclosing the hoard. At that time there was no deposit insurance at banks, and failures were common. Many people kept their savings in cans, pots, jars and boxes in “secret” places away from their homes.

 

[bsshog40]

I'm not a tax man, except for turbo tax. What I don't understand is why these coins aren't being taxed at either denomination value or melt value. Why are they being taxed at FMV value?

[MarkFeld]

FWIW, I have never heard of Kagin's and am surprised if they have a great reputation why they are selling the lot on Amazon. Maybe there's some tax or fee thing I am missing. Whatever...

 

That said....I can't help but think that the Saddle Ridge Coins will be VASTLY OVERPRICED as were the SS Central America Coins (feel free to tell me how other hoards turned out). Despite gold going up over 4-fold, many people are DOWN on their purchases.

 

My cousin bought a $10 SS CA gold coin and I think he's flat or up a smidge. The $50 Commemoratives (new strikes featuring old gold) were originally sold for $5,000 despite only holding about $750 in gold, a huge premium. A few just sold on Ebay for about $4,000 and I bought one a few years ago for a bit higher when gold was closer to $1,600. I paid about a 12% premium so I did OK.

 

The point is, anything new (and I see this all the time with newly-issued financial products like closed-end funds) tends to be bid up and the local news accounts in the are of the find are likely to be even more impressionable than the SS Central America news stories, which involved a find 7,000 feet under water off the coast of the U.S. This was in someone's back yard....we'll see news stories with quotes saying that coins are a great investment....people will be told gold is off 30% and is cheap....lots of small investors will probably buy (maybe the reason they're going with Amazon -- free 2-day shipping through Prime ?). You wonder if these will turn out to be good investments, flat investments, or if people will be buried for years like the buyers of most of the SS Central America stuff.

 

Even if I was flush with cash -- which I'm not -- I would be staying away unless I was desperate for 1 namesake or a particular coin/year.

 

Kagin's has been around for decades. My guess is that Amazon was chosen - and not for all of the coins - in order to try to reach a broader market, that goes beyond typical coin collectors, dealers and speculators.

[GoldFinger1969]

It is most likely this was a private hiding place for someone who later died without disclosing the hoard. At that time there was no deposit insurance at banks, and failures were common. Many people kept their savings in cans, pots, jars and boxes in “secret” places away from their homes.

 

Very true...and remember, more so for rural and out-of-the-way places like California was in the early-1900's.

 

Even 30 years later, during the depression, 8000 banks went under in 18 months, which is 2x more than went under in the S&L Crisis of the 1980's/1990's over 10 years.

[GoldFinger1969]

Kagin's has been around for decades. My guess is that Amazon was chosen - and not for all of the coins - in order to try to reach a broader market, that goes beyond typical coin collectors, dealers and speculators.

 

That's what I thought, Mark....but still, Ebay is pretty broad and at least it's an auction site. Kagin's is obviously smart, they had to know that all the coin collectors are on Ebay and not Amazon. Even if you use the BIN feature, Ebay seems the better fit. Even now, if folks want SS Central America stuff on the 2ndary market, they goto Ebay and not Amazon. I just did a quick check and Amazon has 2 trinkets from the SS Central America find, Ebay has 41 with lots of diverse coin options.

 

If Amazon puts those coins on their Front Page with sales stuff promoting them, it's going to attract alot of QVC-type shoppers who think they're getting a bargain ("A similar hoard was found in someone's backyard in 1972 and the coins appreciated 12,000% in the next 10 years !!!")

 

Caveat Emptor with 10 exclamation points.

 

 

[RWB]

Amazon will attract many times the bidders that ebay...and their customers have more money to spend than ebay people.

 

This is not a large quantity of gold in the numismatic sense, but the story is one of those things that everyone can hope for but few are fortunate to attain. The really nice numsimatic coins will find homes in some powerful collections. The other material will become keepsakes for people who would not otherwise know what a "double eagle" was.

[GoldFinger1969]

Amazon will attract many times the bidders that ebay...and their customers have more money to spend than ebay people. This is not a large quantity of gold in the numismatic sense, but the story is one of those things that everyone can hope for but few are fortunate to attain. The really nice numsimatic coins will find homes in some powerful collections. The other material will become keepsakes for people who would not otherwise know what a "double eagle" was.

 

Which leads me to believe that there's going to be lots of 'dumb buyers' and probably either lawsuits or bad publicity down the road.

 

Why be greedy....sell to 'smart buyers' and take $10-$12 MM rather than try and fleece the yokels and make $15-$20 MM or whatever.

 

I actually think price-wise we are close to a bottom in bullion/numismatics so that out a few years most of us should do well on current purchases. But I'm wary of another SS Central America fiasco. If you told most people that the price of gold would be up 4-6 fold and they'd be underwater or barely in the green, I don't think most would have believed it. I sure wouldn't have and I understand markets.

[e1cnr]

For someone who about eBay prices being so high, I got news for you. These will be on Amazon at 400-700% of what you would be willing to pay. They are not going to actually sell anything at true auction with the exception of the true rarities, and I understand there is a handful worth a quarter a million apiece or more.

[CaptHenway]

Well, there certainly is a lot of speculation floating around. That's fun to do, but hardly a way to develop a factual discussion. As for the Dimmick defalcation - that took place 7 years later and involved 6 bags of double eagles. Since the theft occurred from an overcrowded vault containing current production, the coins would likely have been dated 1900-S, 1901-S (June 30 - end of FY 1901). Dimmick also redirected checks and did other things to supplement his activities. Superintendent Leach sold his house in 1904 to repay the bond company $25,000.

 

It is most likely this was a private hiding place for someone who later died without disclosing the hoard. At that time there was no deposit insurance at banks, and failures were common. Many people kept their savings in cans, pots, jars and boxes in “secret” places away from their homes.

 

Exactly. There is no logical reason to connect the two. As I said ATS, older and circulated gold coins, some of which were found in this hoard, would have moved in and out of the U.S. Subtreasury, which was in a different building in 1901.

 

See my story of a $21K+ face value Chicago gold hoard in Dave Bowers book on coin hoards. It contained some new and some used coins, whatever the hoarder happened to get at her bank or wherever.

 

TD