Great story about recently discovered gold coin stash in California

[Nutmeg Coin]

For someone who about eBay prices being so high, I got news for you. These will be on Amazon at 400-700% of what you would be willing to pay. They are not going to actually sell anything at true auction with the exception of the true rarities, and I understand there is a handful worth a quarter a million apiece or more.

 

Which makes me wonder where the $10 Million total figure came from since with the huge numbers of mintstate $20s they could easily go double?

[GoldFinger1969]

For someone who about eBay prices being so high, I got news for you. These will be on Amazon at 400-700% of what you would be willing to pay. They are not going to actually sell anything at true auction with the exception of the true rarities, and I understand there is a handful worth a quarter a million apiece or more.

 

Does Amazon have auctions, or are these going to go at set prices like sneakers and DVDs ?

 

Also, if it is NOT an auction you have the possibility of Feedback Reviews which would no doubt inform people of the potential high prices.

 

Finally, yeah I noticed lots of high prices on those 1927 Saint Gaudens...but at least the premium to gold was still within reason: 25-40% over market price and maybe an extra 30-50% points more premium to spot gold. These will be ASTRONOMICALLY higher as you cite.

 

At least the coins will probably be more affordable than the coins from the SS Central America. That led to the creation of the 'affordable' $5,000 $50 re-strikes...which were 600% premium to spot gold at the time...and as far as I know, never sold above the original price. 10 years later, with gold at $1,600/oz I bought one for about $4,500. Saw some recently going for high-3's, low-4's. Others keep asking for $5,500 or more to make a buck.

[Nutmeg Coin]

There is a video on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5kjdK3o0_A

 

This story is still in its very early stages. No doubt many people are working on the facts of the case with the full panoply.

 

As for the case against Dimmick, it looks like he was looking for immunity from prosecution if he admitted guilt and made full restitution, they refused:

 

At the afternoon session W. H. Chickering was called by the defense. He said he had known Dimmick for many years, and at the request of the defendant the witness had called on Secret Service Agent Burns. Chickering said that Burns had told him that Dimmick had denied his guilt and refused to make restitution of money he had not stolen.. I

- On cross-examination Chlckering explained that he had called on Burns at Dhnmick's request In order to see what the Government intended to do in the case and what evidence they had. Witness was asked as to certain statements made to him by Burns, but denied that any such assertions had been made by the secret service agent.

Mrs. It. J. Perry, a lodging-uouse keeper at 483 McAllister street, testified that Dimmick had never roomed at her house and that a dress suit case had never been delivered there, as claimed by the prosecution. ¦ \ .

The Government then introduced evidence in rebuttal. Lewis Brown testified to selling a dress suit case at a Market street store early In March or February of last year, and said that a young man named Silverstein had delivered it ¦ to a lodging-house in the 400 block of McAllister street. G. L. Metcalf, doorkeeper at the Mint, said that in January or February of last year he saw Dimmick putting on a dress suit while In his office at the Mint, and that the defendant had an open dress suit case on the table. Witness said that Dimmick had asked him how the suit fitted. • v Captain Fitzgerald, vault man at the Mint, denied that Cashier Cole had on any occasion snatched a gold bag from a truck, as testified to by Dimmick.

Locksmith Ryan testified ; that he had changed the combinations on all the vaults of the Mint in January, 1898,' and that no part of the timelock was missing as claimed by Dimmick. ., -'

Tells of Dlmmick's Confession.

Secret Service Agent Burns was* the

most important witness of the day. He told of Dlmmick's arrest on the night ol Aucust 9 " 1901, and the conversations that had taken place between them. Burns said: . . . -

I took him to my room at the hotel and told him of his rights in the matter. I told him he was arrested on three charges of embezzlement and that each was as serious as the robbery of the $30,000 one. -1 told him that If he made restitution of the $30,000 or as much of It as he had that the Department of Justice would probably deal leniently with him. He did not answer) me and then I told him that- if he thought I was trying to trick him into a confession I would pledge myself not- to use In evidence any part of the conversation between us "We talked for an hour and then Dimmick said to me: "Do I understand you to say that if I make . restitution of the $30,000 I am to *°I*tofd him no; that he would have to plead eullty and take whatever penalty the courtB Sight inflict. I told him that he had better «»nd n. friend or a lawyer to see me, one" who would rot take what was lett of the $30,000, and asked him if he had such afrlend. He said hA had It was understood that' night that he was to send for a friend.. The next day Dimmick and myself again talked over the question of restitution and how it would be possible for the District Attorney to ask the Department of Tustlce not to press all the charges. In the event of Dimmick making -restitution of the stolen monVv I took Dimmick to District Attorney Woodworth and the matter ' was talked over. Woodworth said that he could make.no promises but that he would have to see what the Attorney ¦ General would do In the matter. Woodworth told Dimmick that.he would be fair with him and do what", was possible for him. ; :

,' Accused .Wanted- to ' Compromise. . Dimmick then asked me to submit what^evidrnce I had against him, but I said I coum not do that 1 told him that If he had some per-, sonal friend who wanted to help him out of his trouble he had better send that '. friend to me and I would i show the . friend the evidence we ha Two days later Chlckering left his card for me I went to see him and he said that he did not know why Dimmick had = asked him: to see me '' I then told Chickering of the conversations I had had with Dimmick.- Chickerlntr fully undcrstood from me that Dimmick had . indicated his gullt-io me when I had him under arrest. Chlckering said to me if -Dimmick was guilty that he would advise him to . make restitution and ask' the Government tb.be lenient. .but that if Dimmick was Innocent, he (Chickering) .would tell. Dimmick to fight the case.. -.That was the. last I taw of Chlckering. ",. N , After I had seen Chlckering Dimmick again asked me , if he ¦ made restitution of the stolen money he ' would be ; allowed ? to : gro free, and • I again told -. him that he •. would . have to plead guilty and' trust to the leniency. of, the courts.':

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19020423.2.65

 

Leach became mint director, after being made superintendent in 1897:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_A._Leach

 

The records exist to connect all the dots if they are there.

 

[wdrob]

 

Does Amazon have auctions, or are these going to go at set prices like sneakers and DVDs ?

 

I read that they will be streaming these just like the MP3's amd movies.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

I read that they will be streaming these just like the MP3's amd movies.

 

Huh ? I don't understand this....streaming what, an auction ? The sales as they take place ?

[wdrob]

I read that they will be streaming these just like the MP3's amd movies.

 

Huh ? I don't understand this....streaming what, an auction ? The sales as they take place ?

 

Oh my!

 

It was a joke. Like streaming music. --- Ah never mind. It went completely above your head and hit the wall behind you.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

It was a joke. Like streaming music. --- Ah never mind. It went completely above your head and hit the wall behind you.

 

Nah, it didn't.....I thought it was a joke but thought maybe you were referring to something else.

 

This whole Amazon thing is strange......Kagin's signing-off on that makes it all the more weird.

[wdrob]

I find Amazon to be a curious selection as well but I am sure there are reasons this is a good move.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Well, it's up:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=saddle+ridge+coins&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Asaddle+ridge+coins

[Nutmeg Coin]

Well, it's up:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=saddle+ridge+coins&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Asaddle+ridge+coins

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, they aren't selling inventory on the hoard until later in the spring? Like May.

[GoldFinger1969]

Correct me if I'm wrong, they aren't selling inventory on the hoard until later in the spring? Like May.

No idea....I just saw the headline banner advertising Saddle Ridge Hoard so I just wanted to alert the board.

 

It is probably weeks or months away from happening.

 

I wonder when the taxes are due -- the April following the discovery (could be next month) or AFTER the coins are sold ?

[Nutmeg Coin]

Coin World has an article on the hoard today: http://www.coinworld.com/news/california-couple-finds-large-gold-coin-hoard.1.html Non-subscribers have full access.

 

Interesting points are that many of the coins had previously been "cleaned" and there is at least one fake in the $20 group. Mr. McCarthy sees the coins as having been stashed over a long period of time.

[CSdot]

The Coin World article is interesting to me in that it suggests that the hired experts are or were aware of the turn of the century SF Mint heist because they are careful to speculate that the collection (that was found in the same 10 sq foot area, but not sorted by dates in the cans) must have been accumulated over time. There is no reason to say this based on the facts except to discourage thoughts that these coins were from one event.

[RWB]

This is a little long, but I hope those tossing about assorted silliness will read and understand.....

 

At present there is no evidence of any kind connecting the recently discovered hoard with the Dimmick defalcation or any known robbery. (See my previous post.)

 

When forming speculative historical theories, remember that gold coins were just a form of money - they were not special in any way. However, anyone systematically saving gold money would prefer new coins since they were not worn and contained the most gold.

 

Few modern collectors realize the very high quality of coins produced by the U.S. Mints in the 19th and 20th centuries. We commonly see only the pieces handled multiple times, and do not recognize what the coins looked like when they first emerged from a mint bag at a bank. The banged up gold we commonly see today has been around for a century and spent much of its time being lugged from place to place and knocked around. Many of the hoard coins seem to be of exceptional quality, but that is only because they have been undisturbed for over a century. They are much as they left the mint bag. Compare with other hoard coins such as the Central America for similar absence of surface marks.

 

To those speculating "the mint did this, or the mint did that," may I recommend you read the book From Mine to Mint so you can understand how the mints actually operated around the turn of the century.

 

RWB

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks Roger...you are the 'ax' on gold's journey so we should take your words wisely. (thumbs u

[Nutmeg Coin]

National Geographic has an article on the hoard too: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/02/140226-gold-coins-hoard-california-discovery-numismatics/

 

Comments like this keep turning up:

 

"They must have rocks in their heads to have disclosed this find in such a way that they're now on the hook for taxes. It would have been much more clever to sell these a few at a time, here and there, and fly below the radar. So maybe they aren't rich, otherwise they would have had better sense about the tax consequences."

 

One response:

 

"You aren't going to sell 1400 Da Vinci's a few at a time and fly below the radar, are you? These coins are worth thousands of dollars each. You could try to sell 4 a week for 7 years, and the collector community would notice after about a month. Or you could try to sell 5 a year for 280 years, and you'd get caught in a couple years. I just love it when someone's first thought is tax evasion. "

[CSdot]

This question has nothing to do with the tax issue, but rather the comments about how the market would notice even a slow sale if this discovery had received no publicity.

 

Sure the few (20 - 50?) really high grade for the date rarities would be noticed, but wouldn't most of the coins from this hoard be fairly common?

[GoldFinger1969]

As I understand it, while there are 1,400 coins the actual numbers for each type and year are relatively small relative to the population as a whole. It's not like most (all) of the coins are super-rare and now you see 1 or 2 a month show up for sale, like with an 1907 UHR Saint Gaudens.

 

For the most part, most of the coins as I understand it have several hundred or several thousand or even more coins out there already. A few of the 1,400 coins are very very rare but there isn't much supply hitting those.

[GoldFinger1969]

This question has nothing to do with the tax issue, but rather the comments about how the market would notice even a slow sale if this discovery had received no publicity. Sure the few (20 - 50?) really high grade for the date rarities would be noticed, but wouldn't most of the coins from this hoard be fairly common?

 

My thoughts exactly, CS. (thumbs u

[Nutmeg Coin]

Another article today in the SF Gate paper: http://blog.sfgate.com/stienstra/2014/03/03/sf-heist-in-1900-may-explain-buried-gold-treasure/#21188101=0

 

"In addition, the coins were largely in chronological order, which indicates they were unused. (There are some problems with this theory, though, according to The Chronicle’s Kevin Fagan in an article summarizing the various hypotheses).

 

"New information, which adds credibility that the heist was an inside job at the Mint, became available late Monday afternoon from research by historian Jack Trout: An 1866 Liberty $20 gold piece — which did not include the words “In God We Trust” — was part of the haul, a coin that alone is worth more than $1 million.

 

“'This was someone’s private coin, created by the mint manager or someone with access to the inner workings of the Old Granite Lady (San Francisco Mint),” Trout said. “It was likely created in revenge for the assassination of Lincoln the previous year (April 14, 1865). I don’t believe that coin ever left The Mint until the robbery. For it to show up as part of the treasure find links it directly to that inside job at the turn of the century at the San Francisco Mint'.”

[RWB]

re: "SF Gate" -- Are we playing "Find the Facts" game? Look hard -- there aren't many!

 

[CaptHenway]

Another article today in the SF Gate paper: http://blog.sfgate.com/stienstra/2014/03/03/sf-heist-in-1900-may-explain-buried-gold-treasure/#21188101=0

 

"In addition, the coins were largely in chronological order, which indicates they were unused. (There are some problems with this theory, though, according to The Chronicle’s Kevin Fagan in an article summarizing the various hypotheses).

 

"New information, which adds credibility that the heist was an inside job at the Mint, became available late Monday afternoon from research by historian Jack Trout: An 1866 Liberty $20 gold piece — which did not include the words “In God We Trust” — was part of the haul, a coin that alone is worth more than $1 million.

 

“'This was someone’s private coin, created by the mint manager or someone with access to the inner workings of the Old Granite Lady (San Francisco Mint),” Trout said. “It was likely created in revenge for the assassination of Lincoln the previous year (April 14, 1865). I don’t believe that coin ever left The Mint until the robbery. For it to show up as part of the treasure find links it directly to that inside job at the turn of the century at the San Francisco Mint'.”

 

What ineffable twaddle!!!!!!

TD

[Hard Times]

Take a look at the cans these coins were allegedly found in and tell me how you fit 1427 gold coins in them. Nobody seems to be picking this up, 3 cans imaged in the sfgate blog article, maybe 30 double eagles max in each? So 3 other cans supposedly, we need to fit in 1300 coins - are they all gold dollars? I have heard that the hoard is mostly double eagles. Something is not right here.....

[jpcienkus]

re: "SF Gate" -- Are we playing "Find the Facts" game? Look hard -- there aren't many!

 

 

Yes, I do believe he is.

[Nutmeg Coin]

ABC News carried a similar story: http://abcnews.go.com/US/10m-calif-gold-coin-hoard-found-yard-stolen/story?id=22764360

 

Maybe the lawyers and "researchers" could have done a better job answering a number of questions before the dealers started their promotion tours.

[CaptHenway]

Take a look at the cans these coins were allegedly found in and tell me how you fit 1427 gold coins in them. Nobody seems to be picking this up, 3 cans imaged in the sfgate blog article, maybe 30 double eagles max in each? So 3 other cans supposedly, we need to fit in 1300 coins - are they all gold dollars? I have heard that the hoard is mostly double eagles. Something is not right here.....

 

Even the smallest container has a lot more than 30 coins in it, and some of the containers are large.

[CaptHenway]

ABC News carried a similar story: http://abcnews.go.com/US/10m-calif-gold-coin-hoard-found-yard-stolen/story?id=22764360

 

Maybe the lawyers and "researchers" could have done a better job answering a number of questions before the dealers started their promotion tours.

 

And maybe newspapers should not quote people who do not know what they are talking about. This is the previously mentioned ineffable twaddle, repeated on ABC.

[physics-fan3.14]

I heard that Schwarzenneger buried the hoard while he was out campaigning. It is the proceeds from his Terminator movies, which he converted to gold at the suggestion of legendary director James Cameron.

[GoldFinger1969]

I heard that Schwarzenneger buried the hoard while he was out campaigning. It is the proceeds from his Terminator movies, which he converted to gold at the suggestion of legendary director James Cameron.

 

Maybe he meant to return and never did, unlike his character in the 1st film:

 

"I'll NOT be back...." ? ? ?

[bsshog40]

The US Mint has made a statement that there is No connection to any heist associated with these coins and there will be no investigation on them. Of course though, the IRS will still continue theirs.