Great story about recently discovered gold coin stash in California

[BillJones]

What will this do to the prices of the coins in these series? Over 1000 coins previously unaccounted for have now entered the market. It will be interesting to see what happens to pricing. Maybe nothing, don't know.

 

It seems that a fair number of these pieces, from what I've seen on the news are Type II $20 gold pieces (1866 to 1876). Previously those coins had been virtually impossible to find in any grade higher than MS-63. Now perhaps those coins will be far more common in those grades, and those of us bought one of these coins in MS-63 will see a price adjustment. Oh well that's one of the risks you take when you buy coins that might have a hoard out there somewhere.

[comicwiz]

Anyone finding a large group of coins like this probably would have done the same thing, but why Kagin's? Heritage Auctions would be my first choice with their top notch brain trust and experience, track record of maximizing value.

 

If the hoarder was a desperate person they probably would haven't gotten all high MS coins as there was no value difference at the time between an MS $20 and a VF one. The real mystery remains who was the hoarder, when was the hoard put there, why, what is the history of land titles for that land? It can be assumed that the person who put the coins in the ground owned the land, until we get further information.

 

After what happened with contractor who found $182K behind a wall, I don't blame this couple for wanting to remain anonymous. The vultures would be circling any tidbit of information to tip off heirs or earlier property owners, and eventually the lawyers would end-up with pretty much all the money.

[bsshog40]

Well I'm sure that all the legalities have already been gone thru before this story ever hit the airwaves. I mean heck, they are already in PCGS slabs. If these are the same coins they showed in the newscast, it's time to start seeing if the "Sadler Ridge Hoard" gold will be hitting ebay.

[e1cnr]

Anyone finding a large group of coins like this probably would have done the same thing, but why Kagin's? Heritage Auctions would be my first choice with their top notch brain trust and experience, track record of maximizing value.

 

If the hoarder was a desperate person they probably would haven't gotten all high MS coins as there was no value difference at the time between an MS $20 and a VF one. The real mystery remains who was the hoarder, when was the hoard put there, why, what is the history of land titles for that land? It can be assumed that the person who put the coins in the ground owned the land, until we get further information.

 

 

Because Kagin's is big and local, they could drive there and talk to people and show some coins. Kagin's also is more diversified with "gold rush" collectibles, and they may have actually done business with them before.

 

Even though you would have gone with Heritage, you have a coin background and there is no indication that is the case with the people who found the saddle ridge hoard.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Any ethical person who found a hoard like that would try to find who were the rightful heirs if any, and though it looks like they worked through lawyers, there are good lawyers with a conscience and those who will even chase ambulances and contact dead people's family's to try to muscle in on every buck. The good ones have reasonable fees, do not gouge and have nothing to hide. The bad ones cover up the most pernicious deeds and lie for their clients.

 

The rest of this story is a long way off from coming out.

[jpcienkus]

Any ethical person who found a hoard like that would try to find who were the rightful heirs if any, and though it looks like they worked through lawyers, there are good lawyers with a conscience and those who will even chase ambulances and contact dead people's family's to try to muscle in on every buck. The good ones have reasonable fees, do not gouge and have nothing to hide. The bad ones cover up the most pernicious deeds and lie for their clients.

 

The rest of this story is a long way off from coming out.

 

Sounds like to me that you believe the finders of the hoard aren't the rightful owners. I read the article and it said they researched to see who might have stashed the coins there. IMO, they are the rightful owners of these coins. They purchased the land and whatever was beneath the surface. I don't blame them for keeping their name secret either. Those bad lawyers you described are likely scrabbling already to see how they might get a piece of the find.

[Nutmeg Coin]

It remains to be seen what the rest of the story is. I'm sure there have been many smaller groups of coins where the "finders keepers" never told anyone about it. In this case it would have been impossible to get top dollar as they are trying to do and not disclose the story. Since it really hasn't been that long since the hoard turned up, I doubt due diligence has been done.

 

The rest of the story will be coming out in time, count on it!

[WoodenJefferson]

[jpcienkus]

It remains to be seen what the rest of the story is. I'm sure there have been many smaller groups of coins where the "finders keepers" never told anyone about it. In this case it would have been impossible to get top dollar as they are trying to do and not disclose the story. Since it really hasn't been that long since the hoard turned up, I doubt due diligence has been done.

 

The rest of the story will be coming out in time, count on it!

 

The hoard was found over a year ago. I think that's plenty of time. It's been kept secret this whole time, which is amazing in itself.

 

You might be right about additional info that will come to light. I just think the couple has acted in an acceptable manner.

[Nutmeg Coin]

 

Would there been much $$$ differential had NGC handled the hoard? The coins went through "restoration" as well as grading there, some over at the PCGS site estimated roughly $100K in grading fees, etc..

 

 

How would those figures have been different at NGC?

[e1cnr]

Any ethical person who found a hoard like that would try to find who were the rightful heirs if any, and though it looks like they worked through lawyers, there are good lawyers with a conscience and those who will even chase ambulances and contact dead people's family's to try to muscle in on every buck. The good ones have reasonable fees, do not gouge and have nothing to hide. The bad ones cover up the most pernicious deeds and lie for their clients.

 

The rest of this story is a long way off from coming out.

 

1894 is latest date - apparently these people are not as ethical as you, as they have not found the 'rightful' owner.

[SkyMan]

COOL story!!!

[BillJones]

Any ethical person who found a hoard like that would try to find who were the rightful heirs if any, and though it looks like they worked through lawyers, there are good lawyers with a conscience and those who will even chase ambulances and contact dead people's family's to try to muscle in on every buck. The good ones have reasonable fees, do not gouge and have nothing to hide. The bad ones cover up the most pernicious deeds and lie for their clients.

 

The rest of this story is a long way off from coming out.

 

When you sell real estate via "fee simple" contract, the buyer is entitled to everything that is above and below the land. Just because great grandpa Bozo buried his fortune in the back yard like stupid squirrel and never total any members of family about it does not give his heirs a right to the property UNLESS there some sort covenant in the deed that excluded the rights to such items. I seriously doubt that there was a deed restriction like that.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Anyone finding a large group of coins like this probably would have done the same thing, but why Kagin's? Heritage Auctions would be my first choice with their top notch brain trust and experience, track record of maximizing value.

 

If the hoarder was a desperate person they probably would haven't gotten all high MS coins as there was no value difference at the time between an MS $20 and a VF one. The real mystery remains who was the hoarder, when was the hoard put there, why, what is the history of land titles for that land? It can be assumed that the person who put the coins in the ground owned the land, until we get further information.

 

 

Because Kagin's is big and local, they could drive there and talk to people and show some coins. Kagin's also is more diversified with "gold rush" collectibles, and they may have actually done business with them before.

 

Even though you would have gone with Heritage, you have a coin background and there is no indication that is the case with the people who found the saddle ridge hoard.

 

And Kagins is selling them on Amazon, how smart is that?

[jpcienkus]

Anyone finding a large group of coins like this probably would have done the same thing, but why Kagin's? Heritage Auctions would be my first choice with their top notch brain trust and experience, track record of maximizing value.

 

If the hoarder was a desperate person they probably would haven't gotten all high MS coins as there was no value difference at the time between an MS $20 and a VF one. The real mystery remains who was the hoarder, when was the hoard put there, why, what is the history of land titles for that land? It can be assumed that the person who put the coins in the ground owned the land, until we get further information.

 

 

Because Kagin's is big and local, they could drive there and talk to people and show some coins. Kagin's also is more diversified with "gold rush" collectibles, and they may have actually done business with them before.

 

Even though you would have gone with Heritage, you have a coin background and there is no indication that is the case with the people who found the saddle ridge hoard.

 

And Kagins is selling them on Amazon, how smart is that?

 

They are not selling all the coins on Amazon. Kagins is going to reach out to the high end collecting community to sell the best examples privately.

 

My guess, is only the "common" low grade coins will be sold via Amazon.

[Conder101]

Wouldbe interesting to see some of these to see if the grades are justified. After all they were apparently found by someone who was notexperienced with coins and he apparently cleaned all of them.

 

He spent the next several months restoring the coins - a job so consuming that "my fingers bled," McCarthy said.

 

If Kagin or PCGS had done the "restoring", why would McCarthy's finger have bled?

 

The story also says that they were "discs covered with dirt" and that "a little brushing revealed perfectly preserved $20 gold coins"

 

Sounds like the dirty coins were wiped (possibly with a cloth). No hairlining? No scratches from rubbing the dirt and grit off? And from the bit about taking months to do it it sounds like he did all of them before he took them to Kagins. (If he had done just a few, I'm sure he would have been warned not to try and clean the others.)

[jpcienkus]

Wouldbe interesting to see some of these to see if the grades are justified. After all they were apparently found by someone who was notexperienced with coins and he apparently cleaned all of them.

 

He spent the next several months restoring the coins - a job so consuming that "my fingers bled," McCarthy said.

 

If Kagin or PCGS had done the "restoring", why would McCarthy's finger have bled?

 

The story also says that they were "discs covered with dirt" and that "a little brushing revealed perfectly preserved $20 gold coins"

 

Sounds like the dirty coins were wiped (possibly with a cloth). No hairlining? No scratches from rubbing the dirt and grit off? And from the bit about taking months to do it it sounds like he did all of them before he took them to Kagins. (If he had done just a few, I'm sure he would have been warned not to try and clean the others.)

 

The way I read it is that McCarthy is Kagin's senior Numismatist. The dealer cleaned the coins, not the couple that found the hoard.

 

Edited to ADD:

 

This is taken directly from the News article:

 

"You hear all those Wild West stories of buried treasure, and you think they're fantasies - well here, this one really did happen," Kagin said the other day as he and his senior numismatist, David McCarthy, laid out dozens of the coins and cans for inspection at their office. "And what is almost unbelievable about this collection is what pristine condition so many of them are in."

[Conder101]

You're right I missed that McCarthy worked for Kagins, I thought he was the finder of the treasure.

[Nutmeg Coin]

The thread at the PCGS site has quite a few pithy comments too:

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=911538

[jom]

Any ethical person who found a hoard like that would try to find who were the rightful heirs if any, and though it looks like they worked through lawyers, there are good lawyers with a conscience and those who will even chase ambulances and contact dead people's family's to try to muscle in on every buck. The good ones have reasonable fees, do not gouge and have nothing to hide. The bad ones cover up the most pernicious deeds and lie for their clients.

 

The rest of this story is a long way off from coming out.

 

When you sell real estate via "fee simple" contract, the buyer is entitled to everything that is above and below the land. Just because great grandpa Bozo buried his fortune in the back yard like stupid squirrel and never total any members of family about it does not give his heirs a right to the property UNLESS there some sort covenant in the deed that excluded the rights to such items. I seriously doubt that there was a deed restriction like that.

 

Yup...in fact the property probably would not sold in the first place (I don't know how many times it has been sold) or at some point something would have changed due a mortgage bank due diligence or whatnot.

 

I suppose the reason this hoard hasn't been disclosed in the past year is probably due to the new owners finding out their actually rights...talking to lawyers etc etc. I would imagine it is better to do that first before telling the world about your discovery.

 

jom

[CSdot]

 

I suppose the reason this hoard hasn't been disclosed in the past year is probably due to the new owners finding out their actually rights...talking to lawyers etc etc. I would imagine it is better to do that first before telling the world about your discovery.

 

jom

 

I was reading this morning about the treasure trove laws, and I found it interesting that in England the finder is required by law to report the find to the authorities within 14 days of the discovery. Failure to do so is a misdemeanor for which you can be punished for violating.

 

Normally I would oppose a laws like the Antiquities law in England, but it sounds like they have a fair market value formula for compensating the finder and landowner so maybe it has some merit.

 

 

[comicwiz]

 

I suppose the reason this hoard hasn't been disclosed in the past year is probably due to the new owners finding out their actually rights...talking to lawyers etc etc. I would imagine it is better to do that first before telling the world about your discovery.

 

jom

 

I was reading this morning about the treasure trove laws, and I found it interesting that in England the finder is required by law to report the find to the authorities within 14 days of the discovery. Failure to do so is a misdemeanor for which you can be punished for violating.

 

Normally I would oppose a laws like the Antiquities law in England, but it sounds like they have a fair market value formula for compensating the finder and landowner so maybe it has some merit.

 

 

I'm not a fan of the Antiquities laws like the one in England, but it seems to have been this way for a long time. That said, I would not be a fan of it being used in North America or even where I live. The downside is a lot of finds don't get documented for fear they will be confiscated or for fear people won't be properly compensated, and this contributes to all sorts of problems, least of which is we have gaps in our understanding of history when unreported discoveries occur.

 

I know, most people reading this are thinking who cares about history - and it's either a split between the camps with an appreciation for the numismatic aspects or the most gold wins types.

 

An interesting sidebar to this notion of historical gaps - recently a fellow metal detectorist out of BC who frequents a forum for enthusiasts I'm a part of found a 460 year old English shilling.

 

What's most interesting about this find apart from the rarity of the coin is that it's rewriting the history of the area, which for years has been argued by a handful of historians that Sir Francis Drake explored the B.C. coast in 1579 - 200 years before the arrival of Capt. James Cook, This recent discovery further proves the voyage.

 

Of course the comments from that news story show just how divided people can get on the topic of "finds", but I'm of the opinion that we are better off knowing about these finds than people hiding them. I agree with the sentiment that the owners probably took this long to make sure they dotted their i's and crossed their t's, but you never know how things like this play out.

[johnny9434]

im wondering if the people that found this is going to end up regreting that it became known to the public? just saying is all

[Nutmeg Coin]

Wikipedia has suggested that this hoard might be connected to the mint employee who was charged with stealing around $30K in gold coins:

 

 

"In 1900, Walter Dimmick was convicted of the theft of appoximately $30,000 in un circulated, gold coins - including double eagles from the San Francisco mint. One theory is that the gold was stolen by Walter Dimmick, an employee of the San Francisco Mint in the late 1800′s. Dimmick began working at the mint in 1898 and by 1901 was trusted with the keys to the vaults – until an audit revealed a $30,000 shortage in $20 Double Eagle coins, six bags in all. The Mint recognized that only someone with keys to the vault and free access to the building would have been able to remove that many heavy coins without being discovered. Dimmick immediately became a suspect.

 

"Officials noted that Dimmick was the last one to count the bags of coins each night before the vaults were closed. Dimmick was arrested and since he had already been caught learning to forge the Superintendent’s name, taking money from the pay envelopes of other Mint employees, and stealing other government funds in his care, after nearly a month in the courtroom, he was convicted of stealing the $30,000 in gold double eagle coins (and two other charges). Dimmick was sentenced to nine years at the San Quentin prison in California.

The gold that Dimmick stole was never found."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_Ridge_Hoard

http://altereddimensions.net/2014/saddle-ridge-hoard-couple-discovers-10-million-old-1890-gold-coins-buried-backyard-mint-theft

[Loki]

This made the news even up here in Canada.

 

The article on the CBC indicates that the way the coins were stored (cans filled roughly chronologically over long periods) is taken to imply that this was someone's "under the mattress" savings.

 

CBC News Article

[CSdot]

Wikipedia has suggested that this hoard might be connected to the mint employee who was charged with stealing around $30K in gold coins:

 

 

"In 1900, Walter Dimmick was convicted of the theft of appoximately $30,000 in un circulated, gold coins - including double eagles from the San Francisco mint. One theory is that the gold was stolen by Walter Dimmick, an employee of the San Francisco Mint in the late 1800′s. Dimmick began working at the mint in 1898 and by 1901 was trusted with the keys to the vaults – until an audit revealed a $30,000 shortage in $20 Double Eagle coins, six bags in all. The Mint recognized that only someone with keys to the vault and free access to the building would have been able to remove that many heavy coins without being discovered. Dimmick immediately became a suspect.

 

"Officials noted that Dimmick was the last one to count the bags of coins each night before the vaults were closed. Dimmick was arrested and since he had already been caught learning to forge the Superintendent’s name, taking money from the pay envelopes of other Mint employees, and stealing other government funds in his care, after nearly a month in the courtroom, he was convicted of stealing the $30,000 in gold double eagle coins (and two other charges). Dimmick was sentenced to nine years at the San Quentin prison in California.

The gold that Dimmick stole was never found."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_Ridge_Hoard

http://altereddimensions.net/2014/saddle-ridge-hoard-couple-discovers-10-million-old-1890-gold-coins-buried-backyard-mint-theft

 

I bet that's the source of this hoard. Bet the government will be happy to take those off their hands in exchange for not charging them with Possession of stolen property.

[Walkerfan]

Wikipedia has suggested that this hoard might be connected to the mint employee who was charged with stealing around $30K in gold coins:

 

 

"In 1900, Walter Dimmick was convicted of the theft of appoximately $30,000 in un circulated, gold coins - including double eagles from the San Francisco mint. One theory is that the gold was stolen by Walter Dimmick, an employee of the San Francisco Mint in the late 1800′s. Dimmick began working at the mint in 1898 and by 1901 was trusted with the keys to the vaults – until an audit revealed a $30,000 shortage in $20 Double Eagle coins, six bags in all. The Mint recognized that only someone with keys to the vault and free access to the building would have been able to remove that many heavy coins without being discovered. Dimmick immediately became a suspect.

 

"Officials noted that Dimmick was the last one to count the bags of coins each night before the vaults were closed. Dimmick was arrested and since he had already been caught learning to forge the Superintendent’s name, taking money from the pay envelopes of other Mint employees, and stealing other government funds in his care, after nearly a month in the courtroom, he was convicted of stealing the $30,000 in gold double eagle coins (and two other charges). Dimmick was sentenced to nine years at the San Quentin prison in California.

The gold that Dimmick stole was never found."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_Ridge_Hoard

http://altereddimensions.net/2014/saddle-ridge-hoard-couple-discovers-10-million-old-1890-gold-coins-buried-backyard-mint-theft

 

I bet that's the source of this hoard. Bet the government will be happy to take those off their hands in exchange for not charging them with Possession of stolen property.

 

Yeah---I'm wondering if this will be another Langbord Family-type lawsuit?? My thinking is that it would be tough to prove the ORIGIN.

[Nutmeg Coin]

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming, the puzzle fits. The Langbord case was probably a weaker case by the Feds. than this one if they can just connect some of the dots which should not be that hard to do with all the attention this case has aroused.

[bsshog40]

I find it odd that the tin cans weren't rusted completely. The cans look to be in pretty decent condition for being buried for soo long. I know gold doesn't rust, but old tin cans?

[GoldFinger1969]

And Kagins is selling them on Amazon, how smart is that?

 

Are they on sale yet ?