Great story about recently discovered gold coin stash in California

[CSdot]

The US Mint has made a statement that there is No connection to any heist associated with these coins and there will be no investigation on them.

 

The Langbord family should have hired Kagins.

[Nutmeg Coin]

The US Mint has made a statement that there is No connection to any heist associated with these coins and there will be no investigation on them. Of course though, the IRS will still continue theirs.

 

I watched the segment on CBS that had that feature at the end of the 6:30 news.

 

The US Mint? Last I checked they were not particularly engaged in law enforcement.

 

How about the FBI? Treasury in particular has many agencies connected to them. It remains to be seen what they will be investigating as they seldom let their target know until their investigations are well underway.

 

I have some questions on this story, specifically on the SF mint thefts which were a serious concern of mint director Leach, appointed superintendent in 1897. Here are a few, though I could bring up dozens more questions:

 

There are a number of questions that occur to me on this theory of the theft from the SF mint, as there were a number of such thefts. Suspicion fell heavily on Dimmick and he was sentenced to hard labor for the heist, whereas Cole, his superior seems to have been very eager to get Dimmick to be pinned with the $30K robbery. Dimmick didn't die until 1930, why didn't he go back to Auburn, CA (a probably gold country site of the cache) after he got out of prison? Cole died around 1906, but had been ailing so if he had been involved in the thefts, he may not have physically been able to retrieve the loot later. It is a long way from SF to Auburn too. Why there?

 

How easy or hard was it to get nice high mintstate $20s from the SF mint or banks? Did you have to know a bank manager to get the rare or high graded pieces? What is the probability that someone who was just looking for $20 gold pieces as money, stored where they were free from bank troubles, would have stored so many high grade and rare issues? Does the modus operandi (MO) in evidence here fit stolen property or private owners storing money? How many examples are there of similar hoards stored in similar fashion by contemporaries? Has accurate dating of the metal storage cans been done? Did the lawyers and researchers advising the hoard couple and Kagin's thoroughly research land deeds to ascertain any likely previous owner of the land rich enough to have put their wealth on the treasure trove land?

[GoldFinger1969]

The Langbord family should have hired Kagins.

 

FWIW, they will probably eventually win their case or reach an amicable settlement.

 

Unless the government can PROVE that Izzy Swift stole the coins or bribed someone illegally, I'm going to assume it was a quasi-legal swap/exchange.

 

You know...if the government wins their case they probably CAN'T sell the coins, monetized or not (the 2002 sale, looks like hypocrisy, they say they should have been melted down so they should probably be melted down today, etc.).....but if the Langbord's win, the government will probably make tens of millions between their share of the proceeds and the taxes the Langbord's pay.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Careers are built in government by convictions, not by esoteric principles. Embarrassment is the government employee's main fear and consequences.

[CSdot]

The Langbord family should have hired Kagins.

 

FWIW, they will probably eventually win their case or reach an amicable settlement.

 

Unless the government can PROVE that Izzy Swift stole the coins or bribed someone illegally, I'm going to assume it was a quasi-legal swap/exchange.

 

You know...if the government wins their case they probably CAN'T sell the coins, monetized or not (the 2002 sale, looks like hypocrisy, they say they should have been melted down so they should probably be melted down today, etc.).....but if the Langbord's win, the government will probably make tens of millions between their share of the proceeds and the taxes the Langbord's pay.

 

Where is that case in the courts now? Presumably on appeal? Does anyone know which level of appeal currently?

[GoldFinger1969]

Where is that case in the courts now? Presumably on appeal? Does anyone know which level of appeal currently?

 

Govt won Round 1....Langbord's appealing...not sure what level of appeal it is in...RWB is a consultant to the family but he can't comment.

 

I'm sure when it re-starts we'll see a headline.

[CSdot]

Where is that case in the courts now? Presumably on appeal? Does anyone know which level of appeal currently?

 

Govt won Round 1....Langbord's appealing...not sure what level of appeal it is in...RWB is a consultant to the family but he can't comment.

 

I'm sure when it re-starts we'll see a headline.

 

Here is something I found online: "On July 20th, at the U.S. District Court in Philadelphia, the jury reached a verdict in the ten day trial regarding the title of ten 1933 Double Eagles ($20 gold coins). The coin collecting community was horrified that a jury unanimously ruled that these ten coins were stolen from the U.S. Mint and are thus the property of the U.S."

 

https://www.coinweek.com/commentary/coin-rarities-related-topics-the-jury-verdict-in-the-case-of-the-langbord-1933-double-eagles-20-gold-coins/

[GoldFinger1969]

Here is something I found online: "On July 20th, at the U.S. District Court in Philadelphia, the jury reached a verdict in the ten day trial regarding the title of ten 1933 Double Eagles ($20 gold coins). The coin collecting community was horrified that a jury unanimously ruled that these ten coins were stolen from the U.S. Mint and are thus the property of the U.S."

https://www.coinweek.com/commentary/coin-rarities-related-topics-the-jury-verdict-in-the-case-of-the-langbord-1933-double-eagles-20-gold-coins/

 

I don't know if 2 of the gentlemen testified at the trial but RWB certainly did.

 

I think the problem might have been that the government didn't have to prove that the coins were stolen, but that the Langbord's had to prove that they were NOT. IMO, both are close to impossible to prove.

 

I think the weight of the evidence is that the coins were likely a legitimate exchange. Split the damn coins 4-4-2....4 for the government, 4 for the Langbords, 2 for me (I'll sell 1 and keep the other).

 

Has the government said what they'll do with them ? I can't believe they will be melted down...probably put on display at Museums and Federal Reserve Banks.....if they sell part of them, the owners would probably DONATE them to the public anyway (well, probably a few will)....so you'd still have them visible for the public, good publicity for the Treasury's/Mint's coin programs, millions in taxes raised on the sales, millions in sales proceeds to be split - win, win, win, win !!!!

 

Meanwhile, as it stands now, the government owns 10 ounces of gold worth $13,300. Whoop-de-damn-doo.

[joes2001]

I think this hoard is definitely the one stolen from the mint and mentioned in the old newspaper. I read the dealer's claims that this isn't the case, but I don't buy it. Of course he would try and claim they aren't a stolen stash.

[GoldFinger1969]

I think this hoard is definitely the one stolen from the mint and mentioned in the old newspaper. I read the dealer's claims that this isn't the case, but I don't buy it. Of course he would try and claim they aren't a stolen stash.

 

Our experts here insist that it doesn't match up with the theft and there are coins in the hoard that predate the theft.

[joes2001]

why should a private person/family benefit from stolen government property? Maybe jealousy is involved. Of course I can't afford cool coins like this that some richer people on here can afford. But that's irrelevant. There are laws, and these people have to follow them just like all of us. Perhaps it's the people on this forum advocating for this family that are the real jealous ones; some of you just want them to get on the market so YOU can buy them and own them, regardless of what laws there are about such finds.

[GoldFinger1969]

why should a private person/family benefit from stolen government property?

 

It hasn't been established that the coins have been stolen. It's also unclear if they WERE stolen if the statute of limitations has run out OR if the Treasury would just ask for the face value returned...face value with interest....whatever.

 

Besides, the government will get almost 40% of the take from income taxes alone !!

 

Maybe jealousy is involved. Of course I can't afford cool coins like this that some richer people on here can afford.

 

I can't afford them either, I can still be happy for the couple that found them and those buying them. Mazel Tov ! (thumbs u

 

But that's irrelevant. There are laws, and these people have to follow them just like all of us. Perhaps it's the people on this forum advocating for this family that are the real jealous ones; some of you just want them to get on the market so YOU can buy them and own them, regardless of what laws there are about such finds.

 

Again, what laws ? The government is NOT establishing a claim. The couple found them on property they've owned for years. It's like you are claiming they have a direct link to the original theft, if there WAS a theft.

[jpcienkus]

The US Mint has made a statement that there is No connection to any heist associated with these coins and there will be no investigation on them. Of course though, the IRS will still continue theirs.

 

I watched the segment on CBS that had that feature at the end of the 6:30 news.

 

The US Mint? Last I checked they were not particularly engaged in law enforcement.

How about the FBI? Treasury in particular has many agencies connected to them. It remains to be seen what they will be investigating as they seldom let their target know until their investigations are well underway.

 

I have some questions on this story, specifically on the SF mint thefts which were a serious concern of mint director Leach, appointed superintendent in 1897. Here are a few, though I could bring up dozens more questions:

 

There are a number of questions that occur to me on this theory of the theft from the SF mint, as there were a number of such thefts. Suspicion fell heavily on Dimmick and he was sentenced to hard labor for the heist, whereas Cole, his superior seems to have been very eager to get Dimmick to be pinned with the $30K robbery. Dimmick didn't die until 1930, why didn't he go back to Auburn, CA (a probably gold country site of the cache) after he got out of prison? Cole died around 1906, but had been ailing so if he had been involved in the thefts, he may not have physically been able to retrieve the loot later. It is a long way from SF to Auburn too. Why there?

 

How easy or hard was it to get nice high mintstate $20s from the SF mint or banks? Did you have to know a bank manager to get the rare or high graded pieces? What is the probability that someone who was just looking for $20 gold pieces as money, stored where they were free from bank troubles, would have stored so many high grade and rare issues? Does the modus operandi (MO) in evidence here fit stolen property or private owners storing money? How many examples are there of similar hoards stored in similar fashion by contemporaries? Has accurate dating of the metal storage cans been done? Did the lawyers and researchers advising the hoard couple and Kagin's thoroughly research land deeds to ascertain any likely previous owner of the land rich enough to have put their wealth on the treasure trove land?

 

No the U.S. Mint is not engaged in law enforcement, but if ANYONE knew about the source of the stolen coins being the SF Mint, it WOULD be the U.S. Mint.

 

Stop trying to pin this hoard to that theft. The facts don't line up and the only thing you have is supposition.

[jpcienkus]

why should a private person/family benefit from stolen government property? Maybe jealousy is involved. Of course I can't afford cool coins like this that some richer people on here can afford. But that's irrelevant. There are laws, and these people have to follow them just like all of us. Perhaps it's the people on this forum advocating for this family that are the real jealous ones; some of you just want them to get on the market so YOU can buy them and own them, regardless of what laws there are about such finds.

 

Who said this was stolen government property. Most of the posters to this thread do not believe these coins were stolen. The facts don't line up. It's a long thread, but please read it before you throw unwarranted jabs.

[e1cnr]

why should a private person/family benefit from stolen government property? Maybe jealousy is involved. Of course I can't afford cool coins like this that some richer people on here can afford. But that's irrelevant. There are laws, and these people have to follow them just like all of us. Perhaps it's the people on this forum advocating for this family that are the real jealous ones; some of you just want them to get on the market so YOU can buy them and own them, regardless of what laws there are about such finds.

 

The state of CA and IRS are probably going to end up with more dollars than if they just 'took' them. There also is a rumor that the people who found them are going to donate all profits to inner city youth.

 

How about if they found a 120 pound boulder of gold, same story?

[Nutmeg Coin]

"Again, what laws ? The government is NOT establishing a claim. The couple found them on property they've owned for years. It's like you are claiming they have a direct link to the original theft, if there WAS a theft. "

 

They were very likely required to report their find to the authorities and follow legal procedure after that:

 

The Californian Civil Code, sub-section 2080, also states that a notice must go in the local paper if the haul is worth more than $250.

 

It says: ‘If the reported value of the property is ($250) or more and no owner appears and proves his or her ownership of the property within 90 days, the police department or sheriff's department shall cause notice of the property to be published at least once in a newspaper of general circulation.’

 

How long have they owned the property? All the facts of the people have remained vague. Many questions remain unanswered. I would like to see a complete inventory list of the coins, which should have been provided along with the images available over at PCGS.

 

 

[CaptHenway]

We will now resume the "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" portion of our program.

[wdrob]

It says: ‘If the reported value of the property is ($250) or more and no owner appears and proves his or her ownership of the property within 90 days, the police department or sheriff's department shall cause notice of the property to be published at least once in a newspaper of general circulation.’

 

How long have they owned the property?

 

 

Once again an absurd assertion. Why would anyone have to report something to a newspaper, seeking ownership of something they already own based on the fact that IT IS THEIR PROPERTY!

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

It says: ‘If the reported value of the property is ($250) or more and no owner appears and proves his or her ownership of the property within 90 days, the police department or sheriff's department shall cause notice of the property to be published at least once in a newspaper of general circulation.’

 

How long have they owned the property?

 

 

Once again an absurd assertion. Why would anyone have to report something to a newspaper, seeking ownership of something they already own based on the fact that IT IS THEIR PROPERTY!

 

 

Apparently you don't know the law very well. If you want to argue Fourth amendment and other "rights" with various officials who can and will come on your land if you have any, be my guest!

 

"Usually, breaking the Civil Code isn’t an arrestable offense but punished with a fine.

But, according to one Gold Country Sheriff’s Department, the matter is taken so seriously that the couple could be called in for questioning and ‘could face arrest’.

The law is open to interpretation however. It only applies to 'lost' not 'abandoned' property.

When MailOnline contacted many of the local papers in the area where the find was believed to have been made, none had had been told.

The City of Auburn Police Department also said it had never heard from the couple and never investigated such a case."

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570203/EXCLUSIVE-Couple-10m-hoard-gold-coins-walking-dog-broke-law.html#ixzz2v6L67MGj

 

[wdrob]

 

Well I stand corrected then.

 

Silly me ... All this time I thought we were living in America - The Land of the Free!

 

Yes I do have land, and as a matter of fact I was face to face with a Deputy Sheriff not long ago with me asking him to leave my property. Notice I said 'asking'. Of course he was going to threaten arrest, intimidate, and generally be the 'bully' most officers of the law are by nature. I even have a voice recording of the entire episode.

 

I am well aware that the government will do anything they want to do but people accepting it, as I feel that you are, just perpetuates the further erosion of our rights. Stand up and fight and be happy for someone that has good fortune.

 

 

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I understand where you are coming from, you are probably law abiding but don't like to be intimidated by authorities. There are ways to fight back legally, I have seen plenty of people though who did not have the law on their side when they ended up in court. Video surveillance has become a good tool both for documenting crime as well as police who overstep their authority.

 

I had a couple dozen acres in northern Vermont once; the threat was more from a dangerous felon who was a neighbor than the sheriff/state police who were pretty useless. It made it impossible for me to make good use of the land.

 

Probably the lawyers advising have seen scores of cases like this that did not work out that great. There was a major currency collection that was found in Massachusetts a few years ago, in a barn if I remember right. It is still tied up in the courts. Too bad the courts allow things to drag on for so long. Maybe our legal system is just too broken for remedy, and needs an overhaul.

[TonerGuy]

I have a question for those that know gold coins...

 

Does anyone know the grades on all of these coins ? Are they posted anywhere ?

 

Ive only seen the photos of the coins they used for promo purposes - which were all MS.

 

Did banks keep gold coins in their vaults as a matter of practice ? Was it a customary practice for individuals to walk into a bank at that time and trade silver coins for gold coins. Or was it customary when you closed an account the bank would give you gold coins instead of silver and/or paper money? And what would be the chance that most of the coins were in pristine condition ? Did gold coins not circulate in California ?

 

Anyone who has searched a roll of Kennedy halves knows that the condition of those coins (which arent regularly used in commerce anymore) will vary from XF to MS.

 

Im just wondering why, if they werent stolen from the Mint, are most/all of them are MS coins...

[GoldFinger1969]

Toner, from what I have seen some of them are in high Mint State, like MS-65 to MS-67. Many others are lower Mint State, low-60's. Others are AU quality, very good but lots of wear/dings/etc. And some are a bit worn.

 

 

[jpcienkus]

I understand where you are coming from, you are probably law abiding but don't like to be intimidated by authorities. There are ways to fight back legally, I have seen plenty of people though who did not have the law on their side when they ended up in court. Video surveillance has become a good tool both for documenting crime as well as police who overstep their authority.

 

I had a couple dozen acres in northern Vermont once; the threat was more from a dangerous felon who was a neighbor than the sheriff/state police who were pretty useless. It made it impossible for me to make good use of the land.

 

Probably the lawyers advising have seen scores of cases like this that did not work out that great. There was a major currency collection that was found in Massachusetts a few years ago, in a barn if I remember right. It is still tied up in the courts. Too bad the courts allow things to drag on for so long. Maybe our legal system is just too broken for remedy, and needs an overhaul.

 

Absolutely agree with this assessment as well. We no longer have swift justice and the lawyers are typically the only ones to make out financially. Companies carry "slush" funds on the books just to settle frivolous lawsuits. It's cheaper than litigating it. It's really a shame.

 

IMO, this is one of the big problems when you have lawyers making laws. Most politicians are lawyers. It's like the fox running the hen house.

 

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I have to believe the couple that found the hoard needed time to seek the correct counsel before moving forward. Being in a remote area, the search could have taken months until they felt comfortable with a lawyer. Then months while the lawyer peforms the due diligence on both the previous land owners and trying to understand discretely how a hoard of coins came to be buried in the ground. It doesn't surprise me that from the time they found the coins early last year, until the time the were graded and in holders took the better part of one year.

[MarkFeld]

I understand where you are coming from, you are probably law abiding but don't like to be intimidated by authorities. There are ways to fight back legally, I have seen plenty of people though who did not have the law on their side when they ended up in court. Video surveillance has become a good tool both for documenting crime as well as police who overstep their authority.

 

I had a couple dozen acres in northern Vermont once; the threat was more from a dangerous felon who was a neighbor than the sheriff/state police who were pretty useless. It made it impossible for me to make good use of the land.

 

Probably the lawyers advising have seen scores of cases like this that did not work out that great. There was a major currency collection that was found in Massachusetts a few years ago, in a barn if I remember right. It is still tied up in the courts. Too bad the courts allow things to drag on for so long. Maybe our legal system is just too broken for remedy, and needs an overhaul.

 

Absolutely agree with this assessment as well. We no longer have swift justice and the lawyers are typically the only ones to make out financially. Companies carry "slush" funds on the books just to settle frivolous lawsuits. It's cheaper than litigating it. It's really a shame.

 

IMO, this is one of the big problems when you have lawyers making laws. Most politicians are lawyers. It's like the fox running the hen house.

 

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I have to believe the couple that found the hoard needed time to seek the correct counsel before moving forward. Being in a remote area, the search could have taken months until they felt comfortable with a lawyer. Then months while the lawyer peforms the due diligence on both the previous land owners and trying to understand discretely how a hoard of coins came to be buried in the ground. It doesn't surprise me that from the time they found the coins early last year, until the time the were graded and in holders took the better part of one year.

 

Most politicians are lawyers"? Really? Upon what did you base that statement? Thanks.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I understand where you are coming from, you are probably law abiding but don't like to be intimidated by authorities. There are ways to fight back legally, I have seen plenty of people though who did not have the law on their side when they ended up in court. Video surveillance has become a good tool both for documenting crime as well as police who overstep their authority.

 

I had a couple dozen acres in northern Vermont once; the threat was more from a dangerous felon who was a neighbor than the sheriff/state police who were pretty useless. It made it impossible for me to make good use of the land.

 

Probably the lawyers advising have seen scores of cases like this that did not work out that great. There was a major currency collection that was found in Massachusetts a few years ago, in a barn if I remember right. It is still tied up in the courts. Too bad the courts allow things to drag on for so long. Maybe our legal system is just too broken for remedy, and needs an overhaul.

 

Absolutely agree with this assessment as well. We no longer have swift justice and the lawyers are typically the only ones to make out financially. Companies carry "slush" funds on the books just to settle frivolous lawsuits. It's cheaper than litigating it. It's really a shame.

 

IMO, this is one of the big problems when you have lawyers making laws. Most politicians are lawyers. It's like the fox running the hen house.

 

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I have to believe the couple that found the hoard needed time to seek the correct counsel before moving forward. Being in a remote area, the search could have taken months until they felt comfortable with a lawyer. Then months while the lawyer peforms the due diligence on both the previous land owners and trying to understand discretely how a hoard of coins came to be buried in the ground. It doesn't surprise me that from the time they found the coins early last year, until the time the were graded and in holders took the better part of one year.

 

Most politicians are lawyers"? Really? Upon what did you base that statement? Thanks.

 

Oh, Good! Something I can answer

 

Congress: 43% (of a total of 435)

Senate: 60% (of a total of 100)

House of Reps: 37% (of a total of 535) (2/3 Rule )

[GoldFinger1969]

Most politicians are lawyers"? Really? Upon what did you base that statement? Thanks.

 

He's essentially correct. I saw a datapoint years ago that about 75% of all elected officials/House of Reps/Senators were lawyers and/or had law degrees. As far as officially calling themselves 'lawyers' I believe the figure is about 40% for the most recent House/Senate in DC.

 

Certainly, if we had more CPAs, MBAs, and CFAs we'd have less problems in the big states and in DC.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Most politicians are lawyers"? Really? Upon what did you base that statement? Thanks.

 

He's essentially correct. I saw a datapoint years ago that about 75% of all elected officials/House of Reps/Senators were lawyers and/or had law degrees. As far as officially calling themselves 'lawyers' I believe the figure is about 40% for the most recent House/Senate in DC.

 

Certainly, if we had more CPAs, MBAs, and CFAs we'd have less problems in the big states and in DC.

 

I think you should look at the Post before yours.

[GoldFinger1969]

[Oh, Good! Something I can answer :acclaim:Congress: 43% (of a total of 435) :kidaround:Senate: 60% (of a total of 100) :sumo:House of Reps: 37% (of a total of 535) (2/3 Rule )

 

I believe that does NOT include lawyers who call themselves something else (i.e., a lawyer who worked for a Fortune 500 company or one who worked for a private equity firm).

 

The number of politicians who are lawyers compared to their % in the workforce is very sizeable compared to those who worked for pharmaceutical, energy, manufacturing, or other areas of the economy.

 

I think you should look at the Post before yours.

 

I was typing mine as yours went to print !!

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

[Oh, Good! Something I can answer :acclaim:Congress: 43% (of a total of 435) :kidaround:Senate: 60% (of a total of 100) :sumo:House of Reps: 37% (of a total of 535) (2/3 Rule )

 

I believe that does NOT include lawyers who call themselves something else (i.e., a lawyer who worked for a Fortune 500 company or one who worked for a private equity firm).

 

The number of politicians who are lawyers compared to their % in the workforce is very sizeable compared to those who worked for pharmaceutical, energy, manufacturing, or other areas of the economy.

 

I think you should look at the Post before yours.

 

I was typing mine as yours went to print !!

 

It does, in fact, include all members with a Law Degree, and regardless of whether they call themselves Ranchers/Doctors/Soldiers/ CowPlop Tossers, or anything else.

 

I like people challenging me. It is like the smell of Napalm in the morning.....