EagleRJO

Yea, so why even bother with "improperly" cleaned, because the opposite of that really isn't a thing, which is why it struck me as odd. Probably why as DWLange noted they have switched to just "cleaned".

And what about the grade for the cleaned one I posted just above. XF (Details - Cleaned)? I was thinking XF or XF+ (see attached for XF-45), or maybe even AU at a stretch because the hair lines and ear on the obv as well as the eagle's breast on the rev are still well defined and clearly visible. Did someone really ruin an otherwise nice condition coin like that?

I hands-down prefer raw coins over ones in slab coffins, as I like to hold the coins I collect in my hands (yes, with cotton gloves if not holding it by the edges). I am collecting the Morgans and ASEs because I really like both the way they look and how they feel in my hand. I also find it more interesting evaluating the coin myself, instead of just looking at a label. Plus, raw coins are less expensive than TPG slabbed ones. So, I intentionally decided to collect raw Morgans, except for a handful (no pun intended) of really rare/expensive ones where it could be very risky going with raw coins. There are usually plenty of raw Morgans available to choose from, even the less common earlier/later dates, until I hit the 1903-S Morgan. I just can't seem to find any decent ones that haven't been dipped or cleaned. Maybe it's just the price point I hit of around $400 to $500 for an XF grade, and above that grade there is a big price jump. So, people may be trying to cash in on buying lower grade ones and cleaning/dipping them to try and pass them off as an AU worth 4 times an XF. It is starting to look like I will have to compromise and buy a 1903-S in a slab coffin, and then crack it out of the slab coffin if I want to actually hold it ...

I have been skipping past the more expensive Morgans and will circle back to those in the future when the prices aren't nuts. For now, I am just hitting the more common and lower cost ones.

I am starting to get that, as I can't seem to find any decent raw 1903-S coins. Any suggestions on where to get raw less common date/mint Morgans where I might be able to bid on them or make offers (other than some of the larger dealers who don't seem accept offers on coins? Also, what about a grade for that last 1903-S Morgan? XF Details - Cleaned?

When possible, I buy direct from the mint so I am 100% sure of what I am getting.

Man, does eBay have any of the less common Morgans like a 1903-S that I just worked down to in decent condition that are not dipped or cleaned? Here is another one that at first glance looked to me like an XF (maybe VF+) but looking closer there are darker areas within and around the letters and features indicating it may have been cleaned ... smh. In any event, cleaning aside, would this one be an XF, or maybe a VF+ even if its TPG Details - Cleaned?

Yes, I meant the 1849 Seated Liberty Dollar, not half-dollar, in your Cleaned collection. It was coming up yesterday as "That certification number was not found", but when I checked just now the PCGS cert did come up. The one that did surprise me as number graded by NGC as PF-62 (not Details graded) was the 1880 Seated Liberty Half Dollar (attached). Seemed like a lot of scratches in the obverse field for a TPG number graded coin. It does seem like you can get some good deals with "problem" coins if you are going in eyes-wide-open and willing to accept those potential issues, particularly with raw coins which may not grade out due to those issues. But as a newer collector I am staying away from them for the time being. Now, when it comes to filling in the blanks in my complete Morgan collection down the road when I have more experience, I may end up looking at problem coins for a few of the really expensive ones, like the 1893-S Morgan Dollar where even a TPG G-4 goes for around $2,500 thru like Great Collections, just to have a complete set with one that looks good and fits with the others in my set where I am going after AU/BU or XF as a minimum.

Sweet, thanks @J P Mashoke and @Hoghead515, that is good to know. I may buy a bunch of the "circulated" or "not certified as uncirculated" bullion coins from dealers like JMB to fill in a bunch of late 1900's to early 2000's slots I am missing in order to save some $ and focus on the Proof ASEs for my collection. Like one of those for 1996(W) would cost $50 thru JMB, but if I wanted guaranteed BU condition it would be like $100 from APMEX. They are just bullion coins and probably look just as nice as the pricier BU ones. Glad to know they will likely grade out to MS if I ever send them in to do a Registry Set for ASEs. Party time ... BTW, nice ASE collection JP. Is that each year of the bullion coins thru 2022, plus some proofs/burnished ones?

I agree those would be uncirculated bullion coins if they were put in the plastic capsules right off the bat. I did say if they were not "slabbed/protected" then they would become "circulated", which is not the case with the ASEs you have. Putting them in the capsules does protect them. Now if you just handle them with your hands and toss them in safe drawers along with some other bullion coins, bullion bars, etc. like my brother does you will probably end up causing minor scratches, scuff marks, etc. consistent with something being circulated, I'm not saying bullion coins are the same as currency coins that you can get at the bank or buy things with directly, although I guess one could barter with them based on a spot price for that precious metal. But I could only see that happening at a coin dealer or pawn shop. Imagine the look on the grocery store check-out girls face if you ring up a $65 amount and hand her 4 silver ASE's and tell her at a spot of $20/oz that's $80 in silver, can I have my change in singles ...

@SandonThanks for sharing your sets of cleaned coins, interesting and educational. The one that surprised me was graded by NGC is the 1880 Seated Liberty Half Dollar due to the scratches, particularly on the obverse. I also noticed that the PCGS certification for the 1849 Seated Liberty Half Dollar came back as missing. Nice Morgan Dollar collection to. But where is your Proof 1895 (P) ...

So, if it was dipped it would affect even the lettered area, so I assume you guys are saying that coin appears to be physically polished maybe with like a dremel and a buffing wheel?

Thanks, that makes sense.

okay, so shiny fields that becomes less shiny towards the letters which is damage and not cleaning ... hmmmmm ... do I get 3 questions to solve the newbie puzzle? Q1. Is it chemical damage? ... BTW ... I was getting confused because I think of even physical cleaning as "Cleaned - No Grade" and not as "damaged - no grade". And I get a kick out of these shysters who list a coin on eBay as "PCGS Graded AU" and then something like "Nice Details!" with just a pic of the blast white coin, and when you ask to see the label it of course says "AU DETAILS" and "CLEANED" below that ... ;-)

I have, which is why I am asking the question. It does seem a little overly shiny/reflective, but I am not sure if that's because it's a cleaned/polished coin (likely is), or just a poor picture with reflections off of the plastic cover, or if that's what he was referring to at all. And in my mind a cleaned/polished coin with no grade as a result of that (e.g. cleaned - details only) is different than "Damaged. No grade". I have seen graded dinged, scraped and scratched coins "details" graded, but no number. So as a less experienced collector I am left wondering what exactly the damage is which prevents even details grading, and the question remains.

Yea, I know, that why it struck me as odd.

I'm a newer collector and this is the first time I recall seeing a TPG label state that a coin was "Improperly Cleaned", although I have seen numerous labeled as "cleaned". I am left wondering what they mean by that, because I have also not seen "Properly Cleaned". For cleaned coins it's usually just the descriptive grade with "Details" (no number grade), and then a reason like "Cleaned" or damaged. If it is "properly cleaned" is it noted similar to the improper cleaning of that era, or is it just graded without mentioning that like a properly cleaned coin currently is handled, which I think is actually called "numismatic conservation", and not "cleaning" nowadays.

Once someone gets a bullion coin and it's not slabbed/protected I think it becomes "circulated". I collect ASEs, including the proof & bullion coins, and see the older bullion coins listed as "Circulated" or "Not Certified as Uncirculated" all the time. Check out sites for some of the larger dealers like JM Bullion (Buy All American Silver Eagles | JM Bullion) and eBay listings like these: 1993 CIRCULATED American Silver Eagle 1 Troy Oz .999 Fine Silver $19.93 START ... 2005 American Silver Eagle Dollar Coin 1 oz. Fine Silver - Circulated. They are a little less expensive if you're not worried about getting BU ones and having them TPG slabbed, which I don't really care about as long as they are in good condition and isn't really needed or cost effective for a bullion coin, unless you are including them in a Registry Set. To me "uncirculated" means regular circulation-strike (or business-strike) coins and bullion intended for commerce or trading but never actually used as such. And even for sets they describe them as having an "uncirculated finish". I don't know why the US Mint doesn't just call the "uncirculated" coins "burnished" coins like most in common usage, and even how they are listed in the Red Book. So, I guess he is SOL on getting the (W) added to his label ... oh well, it was just a thought.

Where/what is the damage (other than maybe possible polishing/dipping) that would keep #2 form being graded?

Here is another one I was trying to grade. I think I would have graded it Fine (wear of the hair, feathers, wreath, rev rim, etc.), but there looks like a scratch on the rev right side of the eagle. Maybe that makes it a G/VG? Also, what about the dark spots (e.g. around some letters and the neck)?

I checked out his website and he has some really interesting stuff, like this "1964-D Morgan" spoof coin ... "1964-D Morgan Silver" fantasy issue, High-Grade Finish, CLASHED Die Pair 2 Proof-like. I also didn't know this from his website ... " Defacing of US coins is legal so long as the defacement isn't for fraudulent purposes" Seems like he has really popular stuff because it looks like he is sold out of everything. What a bummer, I would have loved to get one of his 1964-D Morgan Silver tokens coins from his website.

Reminds me of the schiesters that sell rolls of "unsearched" coins on eBay and Etsy who get old style coin wrappers and put nice common coins with a potentially rare mint mark for other years on the ends and total garbage in between. shame on you and people like you who take advantage of gullible people.

They will get your quarters from you when they pry them from your cold dead hands ...

Counterfeits?

Okay, thanks for the explanation. So, I was in fact misled into believing that they might re-strike old coins with newer features. That's what you get from reading stuff on the web ... ;-P