GoldFinger1969

Understood....and you said here (not sure of in the book, I'll have to checK) that there were over 260,000 "authentication events" which (discounted by 40% to account for double-counts) leads you to think it might have been as large as 150,000 coins. How did you find out 260,000 authentication (grading) events ?

Roger or Anybody Else: do you know if the entire 19,900 of the Wells Fargo Hoard were submitted for grading to the TPGs (PCGS)........or only about 9,000 coins with the rest deemed circulated and not worth getting graded ? I can't find evidence that the entire amount was graded based on the grading totals cited but I can't believe that 1/2 the hoard was pristine and 1/2 was circulated. I guess it's possible, just hard to believe. For instance, I find a post from veterans ATS that only 1 coin was graded below MS-65, a sole MS-63. But the TOTALs given don't sum to 19,900 just over 9,000. I wonder if I contacted PCGS if they would provide an answer. I'm assuming they graded 100% of the coins originally and the NGC holders represent crack-outs.

You're saying if you travel with coins that having them in an album or tissue paper or 2x2 is better than an NGC or PCGS (or even ANACS/ICG) holder ?

Gold demand in foreign trade dried up when trade and economic conditions turned south...that was what I was wondering about domestically with the 1921's....if their late release wasn't needed because demand was down....and/or..... if the lack of gold DEs itself could have been a depressing factor. It's both a cause-and-effect thing sort of. The beauty of the gold standard is that the economy does good when gold is plentiful and not as well when supplies are tight. While the gold supplied from DEs was small relative to other forms of monetary easing, I think it could have been a small factor. I'll know more in a few weeks.

Agreed.....I wonder if the lack of demand for gold in general and DEs in particular was a result of the economic downturn that year. I'll know in a few days/weeks once I get/read the book.

Yeah, those DEs were struck in late-December 2021. I think the latest batch ever struck. I'm awaiting my copy of James Grant's "The Forgotten Depression, 1921: The Crash That Cured Itself." This is one of the least-covered and researched downturns because it follows WW I and pre-dates The Roaring Twenties. It's possible he will say something about gold and maybe even Double Eagles in the book as Grant is a hard-money advocate. Restricting the issuance of (gold) Double Eagles is akin to tight money policies though I don't know if it was more cause or effect back then as the FRB had been formed only 8 years earlier.

For those of you who didn't go back 20-plus pages but were interested in that entire bag of 1928 Saint Double Eagles (250 of 'em) that got stolen from the Philadelphia Mint in 1933....that mini-Hoard reference above is VERY intriguing. I know of no other hoard of DEs that was found in original bank bags (even the Wells Fargo 1908 No-Motto hoard had been re-bagged in the 1960's).

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: We'll take it up to WW I with the next batch of hoards..... 1913: Only 500 of the 5,700 survivors today did NOT come from European banks. Beat-up coins for the most part from bag circulation among Eurobanks. Other coins likely from C. America/El Salvador came back in the 1960’s and 1970’s. 1914-S: Many of these MS60-65 coins trace their pedigrees to hoards that were released into the market during the 15 year period from 1970-1985. 1915-S: Several hoards with 1,000 or more coins have entered the market since the early 1970s, so it is not surprising that the 1915-S is plentiful in lower Mint State grades through MS64. Analysis of authentication and auction records leads to the conclusion that most of the surviving 1915-S coins came from bank accumulations in South and possibly Central America. A whopping ninety-eight percent of all pieces, or approximately 567,000 likely were shipped south during the teens and 1920s. The overall quality of surviving coins is too high for the coins to have been involved in inter-bank transactions in Europe. Further, inventory and weight information for the double eagles recovered from the Kaiseroda mine in Merkers, Germany in 1945 point to nearly all of the coins in that hoard to be less than full weight. 1916-S: David Akers comments that several thousand 1916-S coins were dispersed from hoards that came on the market in the 1970s and 1980s. The largest of these included more than 4,000 pieces located in El Salvador by MTB. As was typical, the Central American coins were of higher quality than those from European sources and these pieces account for many of the best specimens available to collectors. Authentication data imply that about 330,000 pieces were sent to Europe.

Oh I see...it was ShelHarby.....yeah, I didn't notice the link, Bob. Actually, her post had some good points but again it doesn't matter since this isn't a debate on crypto or BitCoin...but on fraud committed by Alameda, FTX, and SBF.

Thanks Bob.....I'm not sure WHEN in this thread that occurred, but even spamsters here can start useful/relevant threads. This thread is of interest to the NGC Forum people....and as crypto is competition for gold, it's relevant, too. Thanks for your feedback !

Some of these shows just have the most popular coins, often bullion or quasi-bullion. If you are into more exotic or rare coins like Flying Cents or Gold Dollars or whatnot, the smaller shows have very little there. You will find tons of Morgans and some with gold coins including Saints and Liberty DEs. Remember, it takes time for them to pack up stuff and put it into cases. They can tell what sells or gets inquiries and if they bring a case of a certain coins and they NEVER get asked about the stuff in it, they're not gonna keep bringing it. Usually, it's low-to-moderately priced stuff. Althought at the monthly Parsippany/Garden State Coin Show I saw a guy who had 2 beautiful coins -- I think both were MCMVII High Relief Saints -- and I recall they were pricey but can't remember if they were raw or certified. But I recall that they belonged to a client or client's family that FOUND them somewhere in their farmhouse in Nebraska or something like that....in other words, long-lost coins. Damn, I wish I had taken pics (maybe I did ? Gotta go back at least 4 years in my phone to see) or remembered who it was. Maybe if I go out to the show again I can find the dealer.

I dislike that solid soap bar holder, too. Probably one of my least-favorite holders. The newer NGC holders are great, but prongs for me are a MUST as I hate having the sides of the coin totally obscured by solid material. Also, while I acknowledge some people cracking out here-and-there (especially for higher grades or even LOWER grades with a CAC)....it's the exception not the rule.

I live in the NYC Metro area and even some of the coin shows around here that are weekly/monthly are very small -- like 5-12 dealers. Waste of time -- MAYBE 1 or 2 deal in coins (the rest stamps or sports cards). I've driven 2 hours round-trip to these shows and spent 5 minutes at the show itself. It's the quarterly shows that attract from a much wider regional dealership that are in a nicer hotel (instead of a VFW Hall) that will get you up to 20-40 dealers and be worth it. Ditto the Big Regionals like the Bay State or Whitman Baltimore or the nationals like FUN/Long Beach/ANA. I think with the internet/Ebay/HA/GC....folks no longer have to hit all the LCS's and small coin shows like they did 20-30 years ago. They can save time and $$$ by shopping/bidding online and just goto a larger coin show to satisfy their hunger or find a special coin.

Supposedly he had 150 of the MCMVII High Relief Saints.....I've also never seen any label with his name on it, maybe more famous people who picked up his coins got theirs on the labels instead.

What exactly was the purpose of that stupid plastic token in the plastic wrap ?

So during the original sales...the government knew about valuable years and mintmarks and raised the prices accordingly ?

I cannot believe any "advanced collector" does that. As Estelle Costanza would sady.....it's INSANITY !!! Whatever one thinks of the grade or the aesthetics....the modern holders are THE BEST for preserving a coin. As one veteran collector/dealer said....every time an expensive coin travelled to FUN or Long Beach in a 2x2...it picked up hairlines.

If you haven't seen this catalog it's about 125 pages long. Sometimes a page has 2-4 items listed when there is a pricey coin with a description of a few paragraphs....other times, it's just 20-25 rows of inexpensive small denomination coins costing about $10-$15 on average. All stuff I never had interest in : Flying Eagle Cents.....Gold Dollars....Carson City dimes....etc...etc...etc. As Roger and others said, in retrospect, it's clear that the bulk or most of this stuff was owned by others who "piggy-backed" on the Menjou name to more easily sell their coins. The total raised was just under $135,000....I'll guestimate about 1,500 to 2,000 individual items auctioned off.

1802 Half Dime Listing In 1950 Menjou Catalog: "The Excessively Rare 1902 Half Dime....The 1802 half dime is one of the prizes of American Numismatics. There are said to be only 16 pieces known and many leading collections appear on the market lacking this coin. As early as 1907 a specimen in very fine condition brought over $700.00 and an equally fine coin is still difficult to obtain. In fact, the Standard Catalogue does not value the type for better than fine in which condition it is listed at $500.00. This particular specimen may easily be called very fine; the date, stars and lettering are all perfectly clear with the obverse a bit stronger than the reverse. The popularity of this coin should send it over" He meant over the $750 price I presume. In fact, the Estimate listed was $750 but the Selling Price came in at $425. I noticed that lots of coins, except for a few higher-priced coins and gold rarities, sold for LESS than the estimated price (not surprising, sellers are prone to give high estimates). I didn't tabulate, but actual Selling Prices above the Estimates were definitely fewer than vice-versa.

1950 auction.....36 years before the TPGs started.

Grading Of The WF Hoard: I just realized that I have NEVER seen a definitive statement on whether all or just some of the 19,900 Wells Fargo Saints were graded and certified. My understanding was that ALL were graded as the numismatic premium plus the Wells Fargo pedigree made it worthwhile to grade them all, even those below Gem Quality (MS-65). But based on the numbers I see for MS65-69 coins....and a statement that of the "graded" coins only 1 was below MS-65 (a sole MS-63), I'm not sure. The statement ATS implies that of about 9,000 that were SUBMITTED FOR GRADING, only one was an MS-63. It doesn't say out of the entire 19,900 that only 1 coin was graded as such. In other words....I can't tell if about 10,000 coins were clearly circulated (I don't know why half would be circulated and the other half pristine) and not worthy of being submitted for grading. If you knew a coin was going to get an AU grade or even a grade from MS60-62, maybe you held it out. Does anybody active in coins in the 1990's recall if they graded all the coins or only a part of them ?

Why would someone remove a cetified coin from the holder ?

Pleads Not Guilty..... https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/01/04/why-did-sam-bankman-fried-plead-not-guilty/

Basically, until the 1850's from what I read (maybe a few years or a decade or two earlier with the transition)....lots of foreign coins, especially gold coins, were basically accepted and traded and used in the U.S. Spanish doubloons, British gold/silver, etc. Seems like about the 1830's the U.S. started to steal-back market share.....and then when the Double Eagle and California Gold Rush hit, all the U.S. gold coins really took off. By the late-1800's, I doubt anybody NOT using paper money was eschewing U.S. gold or silver coins for foreign.

Wow.....Frank Reynolds...and the 3-headed ABC World News Tonight.....interesting, up to 1981 apparently half the demand had to be met by recycling old silver.....and that 65 million ounces for photography is probably down to 5 million today.