GoldFinger1969

Yup....buy a late-1960's Corvette with some wear and non-original parts and it's pricey but not as expensive as a super-rare ZL-1 or L88 with all-original parts and low mileage and no rust or wear.

For instance, here's their book on pennies: https://www.coinsupplyexpress.com/whitman-publishing-guide-book-of-lincoln-cents-3rd-edition-783034?feed=Froogle&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-OeBBhDiARIsADyBcE6DvgbdbqHcrExIC5xUOM0f6zVvZGnfXYqv89pTMy58g8rhd0KHlk8aAnTbEALw_wcB I just used that link because it had the biggest picture....haven't read that book, but David Bowers is one of the greatest living numismatists and most prolific authors. Whitman has lots of "Official" books on different coins. They are good for beginners (at least mine were ). Check out reviews on various websites, including Amazon for more DD (due dilligence).

Sure, ask away....don't forget that Google can be your best friend if you can't find the relevant thread here. YouTube vidoes might also be good. This website is great and many of us also spend time over at CT. If you just started out, there's alot to learn and absorb. A year from now -- heck, 3 months from now -- you'll be infinitely more knowledgeable, so don't worry. If you are going to concentrate on a particular coin type, I would recommend getting a beginners or Official Guide Book for that particular type. For instance, I got the Whitman "Red Book" GUIDE BOOK for both Morgan Silver Dollars and Double Eagles.

For people with $$$...who want the BEST registry (collection) set....it could be a penny or otherwise common coin in a super-high graded condition. If a coin from 10 or 20 or 30 or 50 or 75 years ago is very common in MS-65 condition....but then only has a few hundred in MS-66....and then a few dozen in MS-67....well, if that same coin exists only 1 or 2 times in MS-68, it's going to sell for alot of $$$ if it's a popular coin type and a few rich folks want the best coin for each year/mint mark.

Sharann, when coins are submitted to the TPGs, they get put in the plastic slab and given a grade. It's on the Sheldon Scale of 1-70. Mint State is 60-70, About Uncirculated is 50-58, etc. Sometimes for modern coins in a large, bulk submission (hundreds or thousands of coins) they pay less for a GEM MINT designation which corresponds to about an MS-65 designation. It might be difficult to see the differences on the smaller coins you collect. Check out examples of grades (esp. high-def pics) for Morgan Silver Dollars and/or Saint-Gaudens gold coins. Or modern gold and silver coins like above. You can buy those from a coin supply website or LCS (Local Coin Shop) and put the coin inside. Sometimes the plastic circulars come from the mint when you buy them. The Silver coin may have been an official dollar coin struck for the Olympics or it may have been a non-legal tender commemorative. Not sure.

I only have 1 penny in my collection....it's a 1982 something or other that is like an MS68 or MS69.....I bought it on the last day of FUN 2020 for $20 or $25. Looked really nice, shiney and reddish. I don't collect pennies, but compared to what I spent at FUN (getting there + staying + coins) it wasn't much $$$ so I bought it.

Yes, I recently picked up some catalogs from the 1990's and later and they are fascinating to read. Roger's SAINTS book and Bowers book on DOUBLE EAGLES (less of an investment in time and money if you want to read his book first) include many citations of auctions from the 1920's - 1950's of the kind you posted above. Great post and pic on those auctions !

Yes, Hog, 1933 was the last Saint-Gaudens coin. Those prices for a 1931 or 1932 sound like from the late-1930's when things started to recover economically. I believe that a bigtime dealer -- Kossoff, Mehl, or someone -- told a client who had been offered a 1933 Saint for about $800 to NOT buy it because he thought the price would come down as with other rare ones (i.e, 1926-D, 1925-S) when a few more turned up. The 1931 and 1932 were not "common" in commerce but if you wanted them you could get them from the Philly Mint or via mail order. Roger's book shows the actual purchase list for 1932 Saints and it is about 150 coins, but that includes a single order from NJ for about 50 coins. However, all of the 1929-32 Saints today are ultra-rare because the bulk of them never left the Mint and were melted down, with none travelling overseas to resurface years later in the Great European Bank Hoards. By 1907 Saint...you mean the 1907 High Relief...or the 1907 Arabic flat-relief version ? The 1907 High Relief traded at a nice premium of $35 once it came out....then it fizzled over the years...and by 1920 you could buy one for $21 or $22 !! I would bet a Mint State or Gem Uncirculated (as it was called before the TPGs) would have sold for $90 right after WW II. Get Roger's book. It's not only about the Saint-Gaudens coins, but you'll learn about international commerce, the Gold Standard, and American economic history. You won't regret it.

My understanding is that both Proof and Business Strikes (regular coins) can have "Gem Uncirculated" or a similar designation without a number affixed. I think I have both.

It almost looks a bit like a bullet. Maybe you could get a special label and call this the John Wilkes Boothe Lincoln Penny. Might be unique and bring a premium. I'm serious.

Well, at least the government has top men working on the 1933 Saints. Top.....Men.

Kurt, let me ask you a quasi-legal question: shouldn't the government have to show a BEYOND a reasonable doubt standard of the evidence, since the harm to the government from losing the coins is minimal/nil....but the cost to the Langbord's (million$$$) is not ? The government would have benefitted as the coins were sold (tax revenue). And they already had agreed to split a previous coin. So how could they say they faced "great harm" and the standard should be a preponderance of the evidence ? These were 10 legit coins, not a bunch of counterfeit 100's to be put into circulation. Not to belabor the point, but in the late-1930's these circulated and were sold openly. Nobody cared. Then the price rose, a new guy takes over at the Mint, and they act like Army Intelligence trying to recover the Ark of The Covenant.

I watched Greg Weimann's (sp.) talk on video (someone gave me/us the link). He never addressed why the Mint suddenly went after the coins except when that guy (name escapes me, it's in RWB's SAINTS book) got promoted and basically changed policy. The coins appreciated in price and don't tell me that wasn't a reason for the Secret Service to go after them. If they were priced like the 1907 High Reliefs were 15 years after they came out -- like $21 or so, a 5% premium over face -- nobody would have cared. If the U.S. Treasury/Mint had such a good case, they wouldn't have lied to the Langbord's about returning the coins and also threatening Roy Langbord with jail. The Mint hasn't ever told us why they are considered "stolen" and basically doesn't like the exchange that took place. Like I said, maybe if they spent more time on the actual $5,000 in STOLEN 1928 Saints and less on exchanged 1933's, they'd have come up with some good leads at the time. But of course, par for the course, they spent their efforts lobbying Congress to change the Mint liability procedures. Way to go, guys !!

QA, I'm not sure I understand 100% what you are saying but I will say this: if Philly Mint employees saw the striking of 1933 Saints continuing through May, they had no reason to NOT think they'd be released at some point. But if they were sure that the 1933's would be the LAST Saints ever struck, then that and the fact that they were new (always good for a few bucks from the bigwigs in Boston, NYC, and Philly) meant that a bunch of Philly Mint employees wanted some of those coins (if not for themselves, then for a a nice payday). So you're an employee of the Philly Mint. It's March 1933 and you're wondering now about the ability to get a 1933 Saint with a $20 bill or even another $20 gold coin. Maybe you don't even HAVE the money or coin (for exchange) yet -- they're not cheap unless you make a good living or have saved up. So...you go to your boss....or maybe one of the higher-ups....and say something like "Hey, I don't have the money/coin yet to exchange for a 1933 but I really want one (or 2 or 3 or 5 or whatever)...can I still get it in a few weeks (months)?" Well, your boss or your bosses boss -- knowing if the 1933 Saints are released or if he suspects they'll be melted down -- knows either scenario won't matter if a few non-1933 Saints are in the bunch. So he says "Sure, we've got some at the cashier or in a partial bag or whatever. Don't sweat it....you want a few, they're yours as long as we have them still here at the Mint." Mint higher-ups were always "helping themsleves" to coins and patterns (paying for them, I'm told by RWB but still making sure they took care of themselves). If there is "no-harm, no foul" from the Buffalo Froman Letter with an exchange -- and most people still think the coins will eventually be released in their entirety (why still strike them through May ?) -- I could easily see 1 or 2 or 3 Mint employees thinking they had time past the official public deadline for exchanges in which to get a 1933 Saint. This entire "official release" thing and "monetization" are hooey. If Bowers is correct that Mint employees had made little runs to Philly and NYC (and maybe even Boston) for wealthy dealers/collectors and made some $$$ for themselves too with previous versions....no reason to think they weren't going to do it with the 1933's. The entire thrust of FDR's 1933 (and subsequent) EOs and the Treasury/Mint directives as I see it is very clear: no gold is to be released net-net, but they could have cared less about any particular year (or mintmark) being exchanged. If they thought that releasing a 1933 Saint into the economy was the equivalent of giving the Nazi Third Reich a printing press to print U.S. currency, they would have issued a specific directive that no 1933 Saints were to be released because they were not "money" or "coins" because of the monetization baloney (which wasn't even raised at that time, it was used later). And this entire excercise doesn't take into account that 43 of the 1933 Saints were actually with the cashier as part of the 1932 Saint balance, something which I believe Tripp never disclosed or was aware of (RWB found that out). You've got some 1933's mixed with 1932's and you don't consider them a potential source of the coins ?

Thanks for the heads-up, Kurt. Now I can rant..... I call BS on the Mint. They tracked every single 1933 Saint -- but have no idea how 250 1928 Saints, an entire bag, disappeared, huh ? And if the 20-25 or so 1933 Saints were all "stolen" -- then how come there is no gold shortfall ? Usually, when something is "stolen" it's missing. Clearly, the books were in balance because other $20 Double Eagles (Saints or Libertys) were exchanged for the 1933's. We don't know when, but sometime between 1933 and 1937, there was some kind of exchange. David Tripp works/worked for Sotheby's. I'm unaware of any books he has written other than ILLEGAL TENDER and not aware of any articles in coin mags, journals, etc. To be blunt, he's no RWB, Bowers, or Julian. This is a guy who cried "orphan document" when he got caught during the Langbord testimony. Instead of saying he missed the document or didn't do enough research in the right areas, he tried to cover his screwup by saying the document was akin to seeing only one side of a conversation. COINWEEK does a disservice by saying Tripp took off a year to research for his book and do "meticulous research." Really ? And the key letter from the Mint stating that exchanges were still OK (the Buffalo Froman letter) he somehow missed ? Or maybe had no interest since Sotheby's might not have wanted to tee off their billionaire buyer of the Farouk (?) coin. The Bottom Line As I See It: The folks dealing in gold coins tended to be anti-FDR. The Treasury/Mint didn't like Switt/Kosoff/Mehl/etc. and their clients, and vice-versa. They made alot more $$$ annually than their Treasury/Mint counterparts and I'm sure that played a part in the hostility of the Treasury/Mint guys who were probably steaming mad that those guys were reaping multiples of face value for stuff they produced only a few years earlier (and which they didn't grab themselves). A $20 coin, that maybe cost the dealers/collectors $30-$35 to exchange out of the Mint, was selling in the late-1930's for $400 - $800 a coin, a 20-40 fold increase when a decent income was $2,000 a year. The Mint and Treasury clearly resented this windfall, and for all we know, believed that the same guys who exchanged a few 1933's out of the Mint were the same kind of folks behind the outright theft of the bag of 1928 Saints (totally my opinion but I stand by it). The article itself is outstanding and the best coin-by-coin analysis I've seen of all the 1933's that were ever out there. Great article. I just wish a few counter-researchers on their legality had been quoted.

$500 MILLION not billion.

James, go slow pricing and inventorying the coins. Assign conservative grades -- for most in worn condition it won't matter if you are off by 1 or 2 grades, I think -- and that should give you a bottom-line value for the coins and the entire set. Are you going to liquidate it all or keep some coins ? Will you sell to buy other coins ?

1865 ????

But my understanding is it wasn't until John Clapp began collecting and focusing on mint marks in the 1890's that they started to become more popular and collectors began to understand and focus on mintmarks. Bowers notes that a publication dedicated to mint marks had 2 dozen subscribers and this was after 1900. So I kind of think Kimball got it right -- mint marks didn't matter when he typed this letter. If collecting ANY gold eagles was expensive, then the focus on collecting different mint marks would not have been a primary focus, right ?

I'm not an expert on these so hopefully a vet will chime in. But here's my best effort..... They actually look to see reflections from a certain distance (I forget how many inches, you can goto the websites or threads here to see the standard). I believe that PL is some reflectivity on one or both sides of the coin. DPL (Deep Proof-Like) is NGC's classification and DMPL (Deep Mirror Proof-Like) is PCGS's for full-relectivity and dark fields. Impressive.....that's a high-quality set for sure. Some of the Morgan vets here will hopefully chime in, if not, MorganDude and others over at CT can offer some expertise. No, if you go by the Hall of Holders over at PCGS the OGH were from 1993-1998. Most people would probably say that grading standards really loosened after 2000, closer to 2004. But even the OGH years may have been a bit looser than the 1st and 2nd years of the TPGs before the 1989 Coin Bubble. We may have some vets here on Morgans and/or ex-graders. Hopefully, they chime in.

You'll get it, Hog. The book is enjoyable reading and will help educate you, too. When you get close to buying one or seriously researching, we have threads here to resurrect including the SAINTS BOOK thread.

The book is pricey, but less than a Saint.

The price is certainly something that makes collecting them difficult, unless you have plenty of $$$. Unlike more recent coins or less expensive coins, you can't buy one with some loose change and bills you saved since your last paycheck. But that adds to the enjoyment. If money was no object, I could buy 3-5 coins a week and be done collecting in 3 or 4 months. Having to build up savings...finding the right coin....it takes time. Makes it that much more enjoyable. Went 5 years between latest Saint purchase. Gave me lots of time to read up on them....watch prices...read books....read threads and forums. Glad you found the thead useful, Hog. Roger's contribution makes it unique...lots of good threads here and elsewhere on the internet but rarely do you see a numismatic expert and recent author on the subject contribute his thoughts as frequently as Roger has graciously done so. His book is one of 3 "must-reads" for Saint collectors or Saint fans.....plus Akers 1907-33 Gold Coin Book and Bower's GUIDE BOOK on DEs.

For the record....I'm a Mets fan. Seriously, this is a great resource. Plenty of archived threads might be of interest to whatever coins you collect. If you find one that's a gold mine of information for your types of coins, save the threads as PDFs on your PC in case anything ever happens to the thread or this site. I did that with the Saint-Gaudens Burdette thread. Takes a PDF per page (so 25+ PDFs already) but for me, that thread is worth it's weight in Saint-Gaudens !

Brilliantly stated, C101 !