GoldFinger1969

Clearly, the dimensions are off. Good job, Sharann.

Pat's, King Of Steaks......I have to meet Gazzo on some business.

(1) Is it true that gold coins were strewn around the floors of vault cages at the Philadelphia Mint ? (2) Amazing that with all that attention to detail for microscopic amounts of gold, that the entire bag of 1928 Saints (250 ounces) got stolen.

Some guys talking about it in one of those Reddit channels. Maybe Roger or another Peace Dollar expert wants to chime in ?

It LOOKS like a Liberty Type I, II, or III Double Eagle.....NO IDEA which one it is because of the excessive wear. Sharann, do you have a digital scale (they're like $40 on Amazon) ? Curious to see what the weight is. Regardless of the terrible condition, it still might be worth close to 1 ounce of gold. Of course, if a bunch of other coins are buried nearby for whatever reason, we may have a hoard.

I'm not an expert on pricing, but what are you asking ? If additional fees for a COA are worth something ? I don't think actual sales prices usually includes this. Sometimes its necessary, sometimes its not. Where is the monopolistic behavior entering into it ?

I haven't watched PAWN STARS much lately but didn't realize they brought in actual NGC folks. Interesting..... Ultimately, you can't argue with actual sales prices, from Heritage, GC, or other places. I would throw out Ebay and Etsy and other sites that aren't frequented by numismatists and serious coin collectors.

Most VALUABLE coins are graded because at some point buyers become sellers and the market is higher and deeper and larger for graded, certified coins. With all the problems that the TPGs bring in terms of grading standards, they are INFINITELY BETTER than no-standards which is what you have when dealers self-grade.

Then wouldn't it be appropriate to just look up the date and mintmark ? If the VAM isn't that important, it probably doesn't add much value, no ?

You mean from the last few years ? Probably just people bidding higher for the "newness" factor or even cool labels.

Check out recent auction sales in the last year.

Here's a timeline that may be of interest: March 2nd, 1933: 1st 1933 Saint-Gaudens DEs are struck. The official Mint records and most previous sources do NOT cite March 2nd as the date of first striking, but March 15th. Roger Burdette uncovered this discrepancy from a letter dated 1945. March 4th: FDR sworn in as president March 5th: Last official gold shipment to Federal Reserve banks leaves the Mint March 6th: Treasury Secretary Woodin (a coin collector) orders Mint Director Robert J. Grant to not "pay out" any more gold. Grant complies, with an addendum: ".....this does not prohibit the deposit of gold and the usual payment thereof." March 7th: A wire is sent from an Asst Attorney General stating that Mint personnel could continue exchanging gold coins for gold coins. March 15th: A letter is sent by Acting Director Mary M. O'Reilly (Mint Director Robert J. Grant was on leave) informing Lewis Froman of Buffalo, NY that he could deposit gold bullion directly at the Mint in exchange for gold coin because it "....neither increases nor depletes the stock of gold in the Treasury." April 5th: FDR's Executive Order 6102 goes into effect. April 12th: Last "legal" day to participate in coin-for-coin exchanges. May(?)-June(?) - An entire bag (250) of 1928 Saint-Gaudens DEs is stolen from the Philly Mint vault. The bag appears to have been stolen at the same time that 1933 Saints were placed in the vault.

Away from The Mob and back to The Saints ......this is an excerpt from Bowers book from R.W. Julian on the famous "Froman Letter": “…..The Bureau of the Mint (BOM) wrote Lewis Froman of Buffalo, NY indicating that gold bullion could be deposited and that it would be paid for by the mint in gold. The letter, which was signed by Acting Director Mary M. O’Reilly in the absence of Director Robert J. Grant, noted that in this way ‘such a transaction neither increases nor depletes the stock of gold in the Treasury.” According to accounts during the trial: "Tripp characterized a March 7, 1933, wire from an assistant attorney general that said Mint supervisors could continue exchanging gold for gold coins as an orphan document. When asked to describe an orphan document, Tripp said it was akin to presenting only one side of a conversation, and to treat it with caution."

Never mind...it was Joey Merlino.

There was some younger "made man" or Mafia bigwig in Philly who used to hang out with Philadelphia Flyers star Eric Lindross -- who was that guy ? Anybody ? I didn't have access to the internet then, as I recall the guy told the media to back off Lindross he was just a fan of the teams.

I saw the cop cars heading for 46th Street as I headed back down to 42nd Street where I worked (the old Grace Building). Figured it was just another crime. Then I got home later that night and watched all the local news at 10 PM and 11 PM and wow.

Just a quick search found these: https://coinweek.com/dealers-companies/stacks-bowers-dealers/elusive-full-steps-1969-d-jefferson-nickel-featured-2016-ana-worlds-fair-rarities-night-auction/ https://coinweek.com/us-coins/affordable-us-coins-jefferson-nickels/ https://coins.thefuntimesguide.com/full-steps-nickel-value/

There should be some articles if you Google the step issue for nickels. There should also be some threads here at the NGC Forums....if not, goto CT or CU. Googling the step and nickel grading might lead you there anyways.

QA, well-reasoned....but to me, if any member of Gotti's inner circle was a lawyer and he wanted them to represent him, that request should have been honored. You may be right on what Cutler really wanted, I've never seen or heard anything on it. BTW...I walked right past Spark's Steakhouse about 15 minutes before where Paul Castellano got rubbed out. I was working in mid-town Manhattan at the time and worked late that night.

What was ridiculous about the later trials was that Gotti could NOT have his lawyer of choice, Bruce Cutler. I have never heard of the courts deciding who your lawyer can be.

It has nothing to do with the substance of his arguments. They dissed RWB as an "IT guy" --- what the HELL are THEIR qualifications in the field of numismatic research ?

I'm not "maligning" him, I'm going by the actual reviews of him as a judge -- which I will attempt to find and post here. And in the 1933 Saint trial, he let Tripp go on and on without interruption, while subjecting RWB and others for the plaintiffs to numerous annoying disruptions and petty interruptions. He CLEARLY had his mind made up, which explains why the U.S. attorneys went "judge-shopping" in his venue.

Legrome Davis 'aint no Nino Scalia, Kurt. The guy had a LOUSY reputation even from folks who won in his courtroom. He'd fall asleep in court....let personal biases enter into decisisons....etc. Check out those judge-rating websites which I viewed a few years ago. He got roasted on lots of the cases he heard. He wasn't a typical GOP judge, they just appointed him because no regular judges lived in Philly at the time. I believe he got promoted by Obama.

If he was...then why was he an honored VIP at the Philly Mint up through the 1960's ? Serial offender, dirty, entices cashiers to engage in illicit transactions -- I would think they wouldn't want the guy coming in once or twice a day for the next 25 years, right ? Something doesn't add up, Kurt. And it's not the gold balances.

Mark, I think Kurt is sincere in his belief, just wrong. He seems to have alot of hostility to the dealers of the day and their somewhat-borderline method of getting access to difficult coins. Personally, I admire it. Bowers tells of numerous Philly Mint employees going up to NYC and Boston (in addition to Philly) and trading the latest coins. You can't tell me nobody wasn't looking to pick up some easy $$$ in The Depression by getting some of the 1933's in exchange for older coins. Amazing that the same institutional arrogance and obsession exists 80 years later. If they had this dedication on more important matters, they'd have tracked down that $5,000 in stolen 1928 Saints. REALLY stolen.......