GoldFinger1969

In the pre-TPG days....I think Choice Unc. was low-60's....Gem Unc. was MS65.....Super Gem was 67 or higher. Something like that. Before my time, I'm not sure if the numbers went up/down by 1 increment, I think they did not. The description carried alot of weight.

Right.....180,000 for the 1927-D......you wonder if a few coins might have been distributed in the Denver area and somehow ended up overseas (and maybe someone didn't notice the "D" mintmark) or still in the States. But you're right on bags or any mini-hoard overseas: they all got melted here.

(1) LOTS of bag marks (2) And of course, there's the huge debate if "wear" from bag marks and other non-circulated causes is in fact wear. You have 2 camps: the wear-is-wear side, and the wear-is-only-wear-if-its-circulated-wear side.

I'd say $2,300 or so, give or take, is fair value for a 1908 MS64 No Motto.

You can probably contact CAC and I bet they give you another CAC sticker -- might have to pay a few $$$ -- if the coin was in fact originally a CAC coin. Probably is still that way in their database.

Happens all the time, but just having the Green CAC doesn't mean you can crack it out and get a higher grade. It would depend on a bunch of factors, not least of which is are you going from MS61 to MS62 or MS66 to MS67 (with a huge jump in the value of the coin). Many people think that coin values come into play with upgrades. Then there are the collectors who want a DOWNGRADE so the coin can get a CAC sticker it wouldn't at the slightly higher grade.

The price is way high for an MS-64. Caveat Emptor !!

Suggested Special Chapters: The amount of information in this book is astounding. Just reading the Commentary sections for the 1910-S you read about a 100 piece Swiss bank hoard that hit the market in 1981. For the 1909-D, Roger not only talks about the famous El Salvador/MTB Hoard (49,000 coins in this book, 47,000 in the Akers book) but shows a graph by graded condition by both PCGS and NGC with a spike showing once the 1983 hoard was discovered. Other coin year and mintmarks have assay, Mint, Treasury, dealer, or other commentaries, letters, conversations, etc. A veritable pot-pourri of information, where you get the same sections but different "stuff" in each coin year/mintmark. For the chapters....as mentioned earlier, Roger breaks up the year-by-year, mintmark-by-mintmark reviews with Special Chapters. One of my favorites was Apex of America's Gold Standard, 1907-1913. Here's some others: Lost and Found - Survival of U.S. Gold Coins ..... goes through the numbers for theoretical surivors, what we have found quantity-wise so far with Saints, the various hoards and post-WW II finds, etc. World War I and Gold Exchange Suspension, 1914-1919 ..... the NYSE was closed and so was production of Saints beginning in 1916 through 1919. Cracks and Collapsing Dies, Double Eagles - 1920's ..... die cracks, die collapse and great close-ups. Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle: Coinage Specifications ......... a short page-and-half, but with all the technical specifications if you are into this sort of thing (I'm not but found it interesting nonetheless). Striking Quality and Details of Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles ..... goes into die wear and striking quality and what caused "good" strikes and "bad" strikes. Luster ...... I never knew what it was, only how it looked when a coin had it. A 1-pager that you will remember out of the 648 pages, for sure. Copper Spots, Red Spots, Gold Corrosion and Stains ... all the latest information on these problems that are thankfully less-vexing for Saint collectors than other coin types.

Is it possible that NGC's Green Labels for RARCOA are basically coins that might have nice eye appeal for the non-serious collector ? If MCM is targeting these people in the retail market....then a Green Label might be weak on strike or have extra bag marks...but maybe it has nice overall eye appeal or other qualities that the novice can easily see but that a professional grader is not impressed by or doesn't count heavily while grading ?

CAC is sort of a grading of the graders. What a coin with a green CAC sticker signifies is that the coin is solid/strong for the grade given by the TPG. Sometimes, these coins can get an upgrade. If a coin has the rarer Gold Sticker, it almost is a certainty that the coin could be 1 or even 2 grades too low. CAC came into being in the mid-2000's as there were periods of grading when coins were given a grade that it was borderline weak. For instance, Saints could be A, B, or C. A coins are strong for the grade and MIGHT qualify for an upgrade but certainly get a CAC sticker. B and C's wouldn't sticker as they are not strong for the grade (C's if anything might even be 1 grade too high). That's the short version from me.

"....The coins selected by RARCOA for the NGC Green Label possess a variety of collector-friendly attributes, including attractive eye appeal, a strong strike, impressive luster or great color. For example, a Morgan Dollar with cartwheel luster, a Peace Dollar with a sharp strike and swirling luster or a gold coin with pleasing color may be eligible for the NGC Green Label." I'm confused.....is NGC creating a color-label strictly for 1 dealer firm (RARCOA) that signifies that the company has probably given NGC specific "wants" on these coins since they might be making sight-unseen bids ? Is NGC spending more time on these coins relative to others that don't have the label ? Also, does RARCOA sell coins directly or do they only sell through a retailer like MCM ? There must be some difference that RARCOA is seeking and NGC is complying with....I'm not sure what.

Mod, do you collect Saints or are you just now developing an interest in Saints ? Besides some good threads here, the 3 books I think are essential are the ones by David Akers, David Bowers, and of course, Roger Burdette's SAINTS DOUBLE EAGLE masterpiece.

MODWRITER: ".....when I saw the @Marilyn Goldenpic of her older PCGS holder, that I found fascinating. Also a big thanks to @GoldFinger1969posts too. This has been a huge learning experience for me. The latest issue of Littleton's catalog has a non-Wells Fargo hoard St. Gauden's graded by our host on the back cover for $3,125 that had caught my eye before this thread. When you said "graded by our host" -- you mean Littleton's ? For that money, it should be at least MS-66 or maybe an MS-65 CAC. A WF Hoard Saint is on my to-buy list.

Modwriter: What is somewhat strange involving The WF Hoard, Mod, is that Ron Gillio -- who found them and took possession of the coins -- has been very quiet regarding the details. It IS possible he was sworn to secrecy and he didn't want to reveal sensitive details at the time. If someone was cut out of the monies....if the people he bought them from bribed people....if it was coins that were in the possesion of an unsavory government or military official....well, you could understand why they wouldn't want those details leaked. However, it has been 25 years since they were found -- you'd hope the statute of limitations on secrecy would be expiring soon. David Bowers GUIDE BOOK ON DOUBLE EAGLES has the story as does Roger's SAINTS masterpiece (probably the most detailed and up-to-date information anywhere on the hoard). I haven't checked it out yet but I don't think that Bower's own Hoard book has any additional details on The WF Hoard (assuming it is even mentioned which I assume it would be given the size). Secrecy involving the hoards -- even the European ones, but especially South/Central American ones -- seems to be a constant. There's obviously a windfall being made and folks don't want it publicized. It's also possible that in some cases the original owners (banks or individuals or goverment officials) may think that the coins are only worth their bullion value, not realizing some or all may have numismatic value, too. So any "middle man" doing the deal made a nice killing by re-selliing to the U.S. dealers. The El Salvador/MTB Hoard was found in 1983 and chronicled by David Akers. It's the only one larger than The WF Hoard I am aware of.

I originally posted a lengthy piece on The Wells Fargo Hoard but moved it to The Wells Fargo Hoard Thread so as not to detour Marilyn's Newbie Thread: Carry on......

It looked like a "stich" job involving the original story from Bowers plus stuff in message forums. Not sure if any of it is definitively false, but as you said, not proven. But I am still glad Modwriter linked to it so we could be aware of it. Not sure APMEX is a place for historical information on coins, though.

OK, I thought it was another person who was quoted in the press release when the PE companies bought them. Maybe the Chairman or Pres or another title.

Something many threads here and ATS talk about. The problem could also be how one defines "wear" with Mint State-graded coins having BAG WEAR that is wear nonetheless. Also, if there is "net grading" you could have a coin with the slightest (circulation) wear (or heavy bag wear) but excellent strike and good luster and other qualities....getting a low-60's grade. We have some vets and ex-graders here, maybe they can chime in. The entire "wear" definition is like the 3rd Rail of Coin Forums and I suspect this might have been a taboo topic on these forums 15-20 years ago.

QA can sometimes write in mysterious ways....but I took that as tounge-in-cheek commentary.

Who's "Brett", Cat ?

Modwriter, where did you get that information on the Wells Fargo Hoard ? I've never seen some of those details before. A few thoughts/comments: I never read that a collector got the coins in 1917. I always assumed it was some South or Central American dictator or military guy or bank official or whatnot. But not an individual coin collector. 50 years being undisturbed does jibe with the Gillio story that they were re-bagged in the 1960's. Close enough to your 1970's date. There's talk that the Wells Fargo coins could have been part of a much larger hoard of up to 150,000 coins. I think that even with a lower gold price that the purchase of the El Salvador MTB Hoard in 1983 (47,000 coins) might have been a larger purchase. More information in this thread which has recent comments:

That Wells Fargo OGH is Generation 3.1......1993-98. https://www.pcgs.com/holders

Marilyn, when did you send in your Morgans to NGC ? When they come back, let us know how it turned out.

OK, that just won you 20 free questions answered by me !! Beautiful coin....it's on my to-buy list.....condition is MS66 which is nice, as this coin is so plentiful you want to get up there in condition. It also is in an OGH -- Original Green Holder -- though I can't tell from what years (have to check the PCGS slab history or maybe one of the vets here will chime in). Do you have other Saints ?

I've read that CAC (John A.) is very tough on Saint-Gaudens coins, for instance. That would be a coin that you would expect periods of time where the TPGs may have "slacked off" (grading standards loosened) because so many of the coins were graded and slabbed for the investment buyers who bought from Blanchard and/or TV infomercials. Ultimately, there are so many factors that can affect bullion and non-bullion coins that it doesn't pay to worry or complain solely about CAC. JMHO.