GoldFinger1969

I guess the $64,000 Question is: can outstanding eye appeal, razar-sharp strike, booming luster, and attractive toning impact a grade ?

"Leading numismatic experts at RARCOA inspect and segregate coins to find superior quality examples, including coins with attributes such as outstanding eye appeal, razor-sharp strike, booming luster, or attractive toning." So RARCOA looks for really nice-looking coins that stand out to the retail crowd...probably the masses, NOT regular coin collectors....or maybe Newbies....then they are sent to NGC where they are graded. On closer inspection, it seems like NGC is just giving a special Green Label to coins pre-selected by RARCOA....grade is not impacted at all, and the qualities listed above that RARCOA seeks may or MAY NOT impact the grade that NGC assigns. Now....if we find that the coins NGC grades for RARCOA are higher than for non-RARCOA coins, that would be a problem. But I don't think NGC would sulley their reputation by giving out higher grades for the attributes listed above. They are simply incidental to the final grade, as best I can read the press release and key paragraphs.

It's confusing....no TPG has ever designed a special label encompassing coin grading attributes that I can remember.....they've come out with special pics and labels for particular coin types, but NOT for the underlying grade or more aesthetic qualities like these Green Labels supposedly have. Again....and we probably need to hear from an NGC rep (I suspect they might be not too far from these forums )..... are these coins being given a green label based on qualities that the official NGC graders normally do not consider in assigning grades?

Is it just me...or did the activity in the NEWBIE section increase a ton in recent weeks/months ? Maybe I never focused on it before, but I would see threads falling down from lack of activity and just aging with no new posts....now, I see tons of New Threads started and lots of activity and posts on them. Maybe an NGC Mod can chime in or a veteran poster and watcher of the Newbie section.

Roger, I don't think I asked this before (not sure I could find it in the previous 31 pages anyway ): how did you arrive at the population census figures for the Saints for each year/mintmark ? Did you start from scratch and use the PGCS and NGC figures as of 2016 or 2017 ? Did you incorporate the estimates from Bowers or Akers' books as a starting point and work forward from there ? Other materials ? Finally, did you "top off" any near-final estimate numbers, especially for the high-end MS numbers, maybe after talking with HA folks or other contacts who may have said "we think there's another 4 coins in MS66 for (fill-in-the-blank rare Saint) that aren't in the market yet" ?

I think that site cherrypicks coins and time periods. Like you said, it's not gospel. It's better than nothing -- I've used it -- but I wouldn't rely on it for accurate pricing. I'd read a thread here, at CU, or at CT to get a feel for price trends on a particular coin or series. Or check actual sales prices in the last 5-15 years at HA. Good luck....my worry with Barber's is that they were popular with the post-WW II and Baby Boomer collectors (of which I am one) but I wonder if today's collectors care. At least the price is down from what I read from 5 and 15 years ago...so you are hopefully buying cheaper. Interesting story on Miles Jr.

If sold at a discount, maybe dealers melt them for scrap and make a few bucks that way ? Maybe the coins are held as gold bullion by an ETF or bank ? I never thought of that as a place for generic Liberty's or Saints.

Since we're on the subject of labels and slabs...I LOVE the NGC modern labels when I buy new stuff. The Saint-Gaudens commemorative labels are great, and the gold ones for the 2009 UHR are also great. I also like their new 4-pronged modern vs. the solid white (see pics).

Got any pics ?

Yeah, rising gold seems to matter here and there. Of course, if the coin has numimsatic value the person should have turned it in before the rise since it's worth potentially alot more than 1 ounce of gold. If you had a condition rarity of 2...and then 7 more hit the market....LOOK OUT BELOW !!! The SAINTS book has numerous examples of coins that were once super-rare, but the hoards changed the rarity factor. Look at my post on the rarity rankings on Page 31....the 1926-D was considered the rarest coin besides the 1933 (which was being confiscated and as we know is basically unobtainable). But while there are just under 500 coins in all grades, there are ONLY 4 coins MS65/66 and nothing higher. The 1926-S has just under 1,800 coins total, with 45 MS65/66's and 1 MS67/68. The 1924-D has just under 1,200 coins but only 18 MS65/66 and over half the total circulated. These coins did NOT get super-high grade coins back via hoards, but they did get lower MS and Uncirculated coins back from Europe. OTOH, look at the 3rd most rare grouping and note the 1927-D. It's now THE RAREST aside from the 1933. The expectation was that there were tons of them out in Europe -- there weren't. So while other coins slid down the ranking scale, the 1927-D moved to the top. If you found some elderly Denver residents who had even 2 or 3 1927-D Saints in Mint State 65 or higher, given the existing base of 20 coins with half MS65 or higher, you'd drop the price by 10-20% from the $2,000,000 level or so. 10 coins would crater the market by 50% I would venture. BTW, I was at the FUN 2020 auction where the Duckor 1927-D MS65+ was sold for just over $2 MM. The liberty design on the yearly-issued American Gold Eagle has been there since 1986. I'm unaware of any change or retintroduction on "newer bullion coins" but then again I only have 1 or 2 I think of the modern AGEs. The UHR was a separate coin and very nice -- just small. Glad you like the thread, it has been a great one to read and contribute to.

Had generous help from lots of readers and from one particularly smart, informative author..... whose name escapes me at the moment.

I usually associated the term "hoard" with sizeable number of coins in absolute terms (i.e., the Wells Fargo or 1983 MTB hoards) or relative to the existing stock (so 10 or 12 1931-D's could constitute a hoard). What I have found fascinating is that Liberty and Saints are apparently "leaking out" of Europe the last few years but not in any size at any given time. In other words, a few here every month but no big pot of coins all at once. And I haven't seen any numbers given OR in-depth articles that might shed more light on this. Roger is dubious, he says we need verifiable facts and numbers and I get that. Hopefully we see something about this from reputable sources. I think in the age of the internet and social media, that any find larger than 2 coins is kept hush-hush because the finders are afraid that the price will drop from the current levels once they go to sell. Esp. for non-common rare ones.

Thanks.....I though this was interesting from one of the sections I was re-reading last night. It's the perceived rarity of the Saints in the 1940's and 1950's BEFORE the hoards started to flow back in size: Rarity Rankings, 1940's/1950's: ULTRA-RARE….1924-S, 1926-D, 1926-S SUPER-RARE….1921, 1927-S, 1931-D RARE……………1925-D, 1927-D, 1930-S SEMI-RARE……1922-S, 1929, 1931, 1920-S, 1908-S, 1924-D

He bought this in-person. But same thing applies to pic buying, too. But then you usually have a return policy.

Roger...on Page 534...which coins are you referrring to when you say "the Big Three" ? Did you mean the 3 Denver Mint rarities, the 1926-D, 1927-D, and 1931-D ?

Roger has other books which are highly acclaimed, including the Renaissance of American Coinage series and my favorite, Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles. What course are you taking that focuses on the U.S. Mint ? What aspect of the mint are you going to focus on ?

1938-D Buffalo: That looks to be a 1989 Gen 2.1 or 2.2 holder.....more so 2.1....but what is weird is it doesn't say PCGS anywhere on the label. It IS legit, though. https://www.pcgs.com/cert/09163364 https://www.pcgs.com/holders

Thanks....I may have to check out the Hoard book. I was told and the jacket blurbs implied it focused mostly on a few very large or famous Hoards (like SSCA)......apparently, it talks at some length about all the coins that came back from folks like Paul Wittlin from European banks and his South/Central American counterparts.

Hoards: Roger, for some of the smaller, non-named hoards -- where you talk about 50 here, 100 there, etc. -- where did you obtain that information (for the most part, I believe they aren't given citations or footnotes but maybe a few were) ? Were they from Bower's Hoard book ? Akers book (I don't recall too many 1-liners about hoards but I read it a few years ago) ? Comments from dealers or other numismatic professionals ? I don't believe you would be able to get that information on hoards/mini-hoards from your regular numismatic research pools of information, but maybe I'm wrong. I plan on going over every year/mintmark for hoard references this weekend.

(1) If it is on TV, it is usually selling at about 30% over FMV. Caveat Emptor...... (2) While it doesn't pay to grade coins under $100 and certainly under $50, it nonetheless might be good to buy a graded and slabbed coin since the grade and protection are worth something. If a Morgan Dollar is worth $50 in the condition I want...and I can buy it raw for $50 or buy it as MS-63 graded/slabbed for $80.....I'd rather buy it for $80. (3) Best places to buy online: Ebay (but only less-expensive stuff from good sellers with return policies and/or buying actual graded/slabbed items and not something similar to generic pics)......Heritage (the best but pricey).....Great Collections (outstanding and a bit cheaper than HA).....Stacks-Bowers (if you can't find it at HA or GC)....and the foreign/ancient sites (a bunch of 'em).

That's what makes Roger's SAINTS book so interesting. In each chapter review of a year or mintmarked Saint, he has eclectic documents, sections, letters, or commentaries from different parties to the entire coin minting process. Plus the special chapters between the yearly reviews.

Not that we don't have dealer-buyer disagreements today, but at least you have an impartial 3rd-party TPG assigning the grades. Must have been lots of heated discussions pre-1986 given that the description+grade could have a 2-grade differential if the dealer thought a coin was a 63 and the seller a 65. At least today you can see a 64 !

Ross, you're cornering the market !! I'm gonna need for the Ross Hoard to unload before I can get one !! Congrats on your purchase. Report back on the differences.

Great post, chock-full-o information.

Actually, that's a great selling/marketing point...the only CAC-certified coin where the owner took off the CAC sticker !