GoldFinger1969

I'm agnostic on them, Mark, but at least the TPG assigning that grade is doing it as part of the initial grading. MAC's entire focus from what I read is getting coin owners some % of the gap between 2 big grades at an inflection point by creating some "valuable" categories or descriptions. It's going to lead to a Balkanization of labels if they are successful. I harbor no ill will to MAC or any other similar company. But I would Keep It Simple Stupid by simply creating a sticker like CAC indicating strong for the grade. And then they should make a market in their coins, buying them like CAC does sight-unseen.

(1) Wikepedia may or may not be true. Anybody can alter the narrative. (2) CAC buying their own stickered product isn't a pump-and-dump......they're NOT dumping, they are buying. They are eating their own home cooking. If CAC says my MS-66 1923-D Saint is CAC-worthy and they pay an extra $1,000 for the coin, didn't they do the right thing ? (3) Where does that $2.9 billion number come from ? (4) I'm not defensive, Alex, I really don't care that much since I've never submitted to CAC and can't see myself sending to MAC. CAC, whatever you think of them, is just trying to affirm quality. MAC's marketing narrative seems stricly focused on promising to close the monetary gap between grades.

What is that $2.9 billion you reference ? There's nothing wrong with making money. Here's the difference: I see CAC/JA as like a fund manager who has the bulk of their $$$ in the fund they are managing, plus the fees....versus another manager who has NOTHING invested in the fund and is just charging me 150 basis points or more. That's basically what MAC is doing/promising. They have no skin in the game. Let them buy MAC-endorsed coins at the value they are promising submitters they will sell at.

CAC isn't pumping up coins to the best of my knowledge. They are simply saying that they see higher-valued coins within a grade and are willing to pay a premium price for it. They're not looking to SELL non-CAC coins, they are willing to BUY CAC-worthy coins. It's the OPPOSITE of a "pump-and-dump" -- they are willing to BUY.

I know nothing of Alan Hager. All I know is that CAC coins have a sterling reputation, even among those who dislike having to pay-up for stickers. And what Hager/MAC are doing is nothing like JA/CAC. CAC is grading the TPGs by asserting if a given coin is solid for the grade, a problem that arose over the decades from loosey-goosey grading at times. This was especially true with Saints and Morgans, two popular coin series. MAC's goal seems to be to create a value for itself that will let coin holders sell their coins for a percentage of the gap to the next highest graded level or levels. I don't see that happening but if you believe it to be true........ Does MAC make a market in their coins ? If they do, then they should be happy to buy coins at 20-30% of the gap to the next graded level. They should be willing to put their $$$ where their mouths are like CAC and JA.

John Albanese was involved in the founding of PCGS and NGC. He has an excellent reputation in the business. He is very knowledgeable on gold coins, including Saints. CAC eats their own cooking by making a market in CAC coins. If they over-sticker, they lose money. No conflict of interest for the most part.

CAC is legit and John Albanese has credentials. MAC is a scam.

The very name -- "MAC" -- is clearly designed to piggy-back on the CAC reputation. And the entire premise -- to get your coin a small % of the boost in price to the next grade -- is really tawdry, IMO. Honestly, the marketing piece could have come from The Onion.

I literally was laughing: "When you have PCGS or NGC certified coins like a 1953-S Jefferson Nickel in MS-65 selling for $22.00 and its counterpart MS-65 FS selling for $22,000.00 (1,000 times the price of the non-steps), one realizes the gap is too great. Grade Enhancement is now a must as the price spreads are out of line. You now have a MAC & GE MS-65 (4-FS) selling 20% to 30% of the 5-FS value, it becomes very clear as to the value of grade enhancements. Another example is the 1999 American Silver Eagle in NGC MS-69 selling for $65 and its MS-70 counterpart at $6,500 or 100 times greater. A MAC NGC MS-69 has considerably more value and could be worth 10% of the MS-70 value."

Some interesting coin collecting and demographic pieces I found: https://www.numismaticnews.net/community/the-state-of-coin-collecting (reminisces of the hobby) https://coinweek.com/opinion/the-future-of-our-hobby/ (state of the hobby/investment implications)

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I wonder if there are any coin collector articles on this Supply vs. Demand demographic impacting U.S. coin collecting ? I know the headlines from CoinWorld, CoinWeek, Numismatist, etc...are all on big, expensive, gaudy coins that sell for 6- and 7-figures and the super collections of the Rich & Famous. But most collections are of those small U.S. coin types.

I have to plead ignorance on any details on collecting Barbers, Lincoln Pennies, Buffalo or other nickles, Walking or Standing Coins, Franklins, etc. Aside from Saints and Morgans, I couldn't guess the population census for any year, the totals, or the Gem and Superb Gem (if any) numbers, either. I mean, for Morgans....I know that many of them have millions outstanding but you can often get them for a small premium or small multiple of the underlying silver price. Ditto for Saints and gold. But for some of the small value U.S. coins I listed above, there is little/no metal value in the coins so even paying $10 or $25 is a huge multiple over the metallic value and/or the face value....let alone for more expensive, higher-graded coins that cost $50 or $100 or $1,000 -- or gulp, even more. And to a lesser extent, the same for the coins above with some (silver) value. Did I read they minted 600 MILLION of that 1909-S Lincoln Penny ? Wow..... Ultimately, supply and demand determine prices. And if we assume no "hoards" hit U.S. small face value coins -- unlike what happened years/decades ago with Morgans and Saints (and apparently continue to dribble out today) -- then we can assume if prices are struggling, it's a function of demand. Which is why I think if any coins grab wallet share going forward -- maybe from some Instagram star plugging Saints or whatever -- it will be larger coins like Saints or Morgans or other large precious metals coins. If I'm wrong and they lose numismatic (or gold/silver go down) value ? I am OK with that as I enjoy them as art pieces, history pieces, bullion hedges, etc. If someone gets the same values from the small U.S. coins (except bullion hedges), great. But I'm not sure if those coins will be as attractive to the next generation of U.S. collectors (however many there are), let alone foreigners (have they ever collected our coins aside from silver or gold ones ?).

I'm not sure there are threads here or ATS on it...but major discussions ALL OVER from time-to-time over at CT on the whole Market vs. Technical Grading, Mark. Key points: 2004 as the year of demarcation....reduced emphasis on strict ANA Grading guidelines....and a "liberal" definition of "wear" so that wear from bags could (theoretically) be separated from wear from circulation. I think those are the key points, if a veteran with more knowledge of the debate in the hobby or the debate on the forums wants to chime in, be my guest.

I'm going to do some work on the ETFs, CEFs, and CB's as holders of double eagles.

Just casually checked a few of the smaller coins prices in AU58 from NGC's price guide....seems that many coins DOUBLED in price from like 2005-10 but have been flat/down since. The drops could be larger than what I saw on the chart, given past research I've done.

True...and yet....we are seeing many U.S. collectors (including veterans) moving to foreign/ancient coins. Maybe it was just a coin "arbitrage" play as the overseas coins were "cheap" relative to where U.S. coins were 15 years ago, let alone 5-10 years ago.

Rare earth price moves were a big thing a few years ago....then they settled down....making a comeback with the growing conflict with China focusing interest on national security, supply chains, microchip scarcity, etc. I suspect you might have more consulting jobs in the near future.

Good question....I think I posted this elsewhere.....how do we know that lots of bullion Liberty and Saint Double Eagles aren't owned as bullion (maybe at a slight discount since they're not as convenient as gold bars) by ETFs or other similar funds ? Some of thee closed-end funds and ETFs have to hold physical gold...I don't think it matters if it is a gold nugget, gold bar, or gold coin. Ditto Private Banks that hold it directly for wealthy clients. Just remembered another big potential buyer....CENTRAL BANKS !!

I loved that guy: The announcer at the end is Simon Oakland, a veteran actor from the 1950's through 1970's who was in the original PSYCHO and starred in one of my favorite TV series growing up, KOLCHACK THE NIGHT STALKER.

If my reading of the actual reasons for the Green Label (above) are correct...and what MarkFeld said is also true (and I have no reason to doubt his opinion given his background)....then we have nothing to worry about as far as the grading on any forthcoming Green Labels. As for Technical vs. Market Grading....the veterans I hear from say it was industry-wide (TPGs, dealers, collectors) and not particular to any one TPG. I have no opinion as I only know of this by reading about it -- I wasn't that active at the time those changes (allegedly ) took place.

Can you give us an example or a few examples ? Thanks ! Interesting...what coins do you think would have been popular after WW II if the internet had been around then ?

Oh, they're guestimates at best, QA.....with all the re-submissions, you don't know how inflated the numbers are though I suspect the market price of a coin would be much higher/lower if the population census was way off. Someone once threw out 20-30% for double-counting in the numbers but they may have just made it up. Unfortunately, unless the 2 leading TPGs coordinated pictures of specific coins and the population census we'll never have super-accurate numbers like say 90-95% accuracy.

These stickers are apparently being created for the retail market with qualities that might appeal to such buyers but NOT necessarily impact the grade given by NGC's/ANAs grading standard.

Good to hear....but check out some of the horror stories here and at CT on delays and theft, especially after Covid-19 struck. And you are right...for a few more $$$ it pays to NOT send stuff regular mail. But overnight stuff via USPS/FedX/UPS has gotten stolen. The thieves know the addresses and know that valuables are inside.