GoldFinger1969

Can anybody give me an approximation -- for either NGC or PCGS -- what it would cost per coin to send them in for TPG certification ? 1....I assume it goes up as the value of the coins goes up, right ? 2....If you are a member you get a cheaper price than if you just send in without membership, right ? 3....If you send in alot of coins (membership or non-membership), I assume the price goes down all other things like value of coins the same ? 4....Assume membership....I send in a Morgan worth $150, a Saint worth $2,500 and a MCMVII HR worth $15,000 for grading -- what can I expect to pay for each of those (ballpark estimates) ? As you can probably tell, no, I have never sent in a coin for grading.

Also, she may not have known that you and most collectors are de facto "experts" by way of studying coins, fakes, grading, etc. They may literally think that a coin collector is like a baseball card collectors...we just buy 'em and save 'em and forget about 'em.

I have an autographed copy of FMTM ! But read it a few years ago and don't recall that section. Want to get RoAC when I have the time -- and $$$ -- to read/buy it !!

Rankings for Saint-Gaudens, By Year (Mint State).... How they stand when Akers/Ambio (1988/2012) and Roger (2018) did the Saints rankings in Mint State. I believe I interpolated Roger's numbers based on information he provided since he has an "Uncirculated - MS62" category which needs to be adjusted for coins below MS-60. Roger's rankings are ordered 1-53......you can see where the change is by looking at the Akers/Ambio column. Akers/Ambio Roger 1933 1 1 1927-D 2 2 1930-S 3 3 1932 7 4 1931 6 5 1931-D 8 6 1921 4 7 1920-S 5 8 1927-S 9 9 1929 11 10 1926-D 10 11 1925-D 14 12 1924-S 16 13 1909-D 15 14 1924-D 17 15 1908-S 12 16 1925-S 13 17 1926-S 18 18 1922-S 19 19 1913-S 21 20 1909/8 20 21 1909 22 21 1914 24 23 1908 Motto 25 24 1915 23 25 1908-D Motto 28 26 1911 27 27 1913 26 28 1912 29 29 MCMVII High Relief 32 30 1916-S 35 31 1910-S 30 32 1913-D 31 33 1909-S 37 34 1920 36 35 1914-D 40 36 1911-S 34 37 1910-D 39 38 1923-D 41 39 1910 37 40 1907 Arabic 43 41 1911-D 42 42 1915-S 44 43 1908-D No Motto 33 44 1914-S 45 45 1923 46 46 1922 48 47 1926 47 48 1908 No Motto 51 49 1928 50 50 1925 49 51 1927 52 52 1924 53 53 1907 UHR NA NA

I guess I'm not an expert on the intricacies of the striking of the press, planchets, etc....I thought it was EXTRA gold -- like when you over-stuff a cookie mold and there's extra batter around the mold (sorry for the dumb analogy, it's the best I can do ). I didn't think that the fin was gold from elsewhere on the Saint....I thought it was "runoff" or a miniscule amount of "extra" gold.

Isn't it extra gold, like runoff ? If so, then it's falling off shouldn't materially impact breaching the tolerance level, right ? I know you chimed in (probably on the SAINTS BOOK thread) but the "fin" or "wire edge" looks like a miniscule amount of gold relative to the gold coin (and that's assuming it is NOT extra, superflous runoff). So even if a good chunk of the 360-degree amount came off, would it amount to much ?

What was discussed, someone (you ?) doing an update of the book ? If I had the time,and resources I'd approach Whitman !! I wonder how many of those they sell a year...has to be a few hundred, maybe low-1000's ?

Yup...not as good as yours IMO for Saints of course....but covered Saints & Liberty's in a more consise manner. Book is easier to bring to the beach, too.

Collectors can/will wait.....I guess dealers can't since it's their livelihood. Not so for (most) collectors. Don't forget inflation...it's coming back like the 1970's. Prices of my favorite Chinese takeouts are up 20-40% in a year or so. Ah inflation...if it's back, can "Charlies Angels"...."Starsky & Hutch"...."Happy Days"....."Three's Company"....and all the rest not be too far behind ?

I wrote a post (but can't find the thread it's in !! ) that noted that NGC has closed the gap -- in my mind -- in slab aesthetics and overall grading accuracy from what looked like clear PCGS advantages from 1990's onward for about 2 decades. More threads about overgrading from PCGS despite the premiums such coins get in the marketplace (or maybe that's why they are overgraded !). NGC modern slabs are outstanding, IMO.

Hey, be happy...at least you're not a BIG Dummie like this guy.....

What kind of requirements and rigitidy, Dave ? I would think that merely updating an existing book would set the ground rules for the editor and the publisher beforehand pretty clearly. Did they want alot of changes from the 1st Edition ? I really wish Whitman would do a 2nd Edition for the DOUBLE EAGLES RED BOOK. 18 years and counting....... Contacted Jeff Ambio, co-author with David Akers of the 1907-33 GOLD COINS book. No 2nd edition likely anytime soon, especially by him. So if you are into Saints or Indian Heads, get that book while you still can, may not be a 3rd edition in your lifetime.

Anything on gold coins and/or Saints ?

The stuff they sell isn't bad...just WAY over priced. If it gets someone into this hobby and educates them, small price to pay. But if they buy repeatedly, they're almost certainly guaranteed to be buying overpriced, non-scarce coins.

Yup....but I think the problem was MUCH WORSE decades ago before the TPGs, publications by numismatic researchers like yourself, and the Internet. I can't believe and have never read a post where someone bought a coin they were told was rare and it turned out to be plenty available and a common. Buyers and sellers will often disagree on raw ungraded coins...sometimes even graded ones. But it's much better today than 30 or 50 or 70 years ago.

Double Eagles ($20 coin)...Eagles ($10 coins)...and so on for 1/2, 1/4 Eagles..

Very easy to tell where the Manhattan Schist disappears....it's below 30th Street heading downtown with all the low buildings. The Shiste re-surfaces as you approach Freedom Tower/old WTC/Bowery which is why you see many skyscrapers down there. The cost of drilling down to the bedrock there is very expensive...that's why Manhattan always had skyscrapers in mid-town and downtown but not in the Chelsea and Lower Manhattan area. That's exactly where the Schiste falls away from the surface.

Actually, the TPGs had next to nothing to do with this. It's the existence of HOARDS and the realization that what was believed to be scarce could come back in droves from Central or South America, or Europe. Conversely, the assumption that the 1927-D was plentiful because the 1927 was turned out to be way off the mark. Back then, all it took was 1 dealer to say something false -- intentional or not -- and there was little way to fact check (no Internet, TPGs, or accurate population censuses). If you thought that a 1926-S or 1924-S was pretty rare and only a few dozen Gem Mint State examples and were willing to pay up...but your dealer said he knew there were "hundreds" circulating in New York or Philly...you'd be hesitant to pay up.

I think I have posted this before but here's how the coins moved up-and-down in the scarcity rankings over the 75 years: Rarity Rankings, 1940's/1950's: ULTRA-RARE….1924-S, 1926-D, 1926-S SUPER-RARE….1921, 1927-S, 1931-D RARE……………1925-D, 1927-D, 1930-S SEMI-RARE……1922-S, 1929, 1931, 1932, 1920-S, 1908-S, 1924-D Rarity Rankings, 2000’s: ULTRA-RARE…….1927-D, 1930-S, 1921 SUPER-RARE…….1920-S, 1931, 1932 RARE………………1931-D, 1927-S, 1926-D SEMI-RARE………1929, 1908-S, 1925-S, 1925-D, 1909-D, 1926-S, 1924S Rarity Rankings, 2020’s: ULTRA-RARE…….1927-D, 1930-S, 1932 SUPER-RARE….....1931, 1931-D, 1921 RARE………………1920-S, 1927-S, 1929 SEMI-RARE………1926-D, 1925-D, 1926S, 1924-S, 1909-D, 1924-D, 1908-S

It was audited in the 1970's, Ron Paul led the delegation. Conspiracy theories aside, our financial accounting is A+. Not sure if the NY Fed has more gold than Fort Knox. Have to check the numbers. Don't forget to debit Fort Knox for 10 ounces....the amount of the 1933 Double Eagles I'll be getting back to the hobby.

Is the vault/gold on the bedrock...or the Manhattan Schiste ? I believe the bedrock is about 200 feet below ground level, the Schiste is closer to the surface.

I don't know, that's why I'm asking. Mark, if 80% of their business comes from 20% of the dealers, then they may have to think about culling less-profitable submittees. Especially if they are time and labor constrained. PCGS sports grading just basically STOPPED taking new grading orders for a year, I believe. I don't claim to be an expert here, I'm just trying to think why they may have acted this way which mimics other business lines.

It's only available through Heritage, AFAIK. It's 650 pages and very detailed on each coin (about 8 pages on each coin, except the more famous/valuable ones which have more). But you can always avoid the less-interesting sessions on the first read-through. And if you or someone does look at collecting Saints (though I know you're a Rooster man), this is THE book.

OK...how about maybe realizing they are capacity constrained and they don't mind "kicking out" some of the dealers who aren't that big in revenue terms and thus freeing up graders and other resources for their more lucrative dealers ?

Yup, Roger not only incorporated Akers' comments above, but also added his own thoughts and it appears most of the just under 600 coins paid out by Philly were mostly circulated. Fascinating how one year can have so few top-end coins, and the coins preceeding and following it can have plenty.