GoldFinger1969

The Mint and Feds take them to various shows where they are. I saw a bunch at FUN 2020.

I would also buy some large-currency denomination bills, $1,000 and $5,000 and $10,000. I wonder if it's possible to buy a $100,000 Woodrow Wilson (I know only banks and FRBs were supposed to have them) ?

Yup, I used to get dozens of those when I bought my MetroCrads when I worked in NYC in 1997-2000 and 2007-09.

There was an infamous (famous ?) thread over ATS that dealt with the history of the Omega MCMVII's and the central thesis was uncancelled dies from the Philly Mint that were then used years/decades later to make the original and subsequent Omegas. Active discussion over at CT right now with someone involved in that CU thread ans also in the 1970's as a grader who saw the original Omegas.

Those guides or their online equivalante are just ballpark estimates. You really need to check the recent sales prices at auction from HA, GC, or even Ebay. As more people are buying online, the actual sales price can vary much more today than 10-20 years ago when the internet was more of a specialty thing. Plus, you have so many more participants since Covid struck. Prices are lagging all around. I find the price CHARTS for coins from PCGS and NGC to be more valuable than their most recent price. The TREND over a few years can be seen and then you can check out recent acutal sales and see what's been happening in recent weeks and months.

Roger said it himself I believe in the RWB Saints thread: it's an average Saint, not even well-struck compared to others. The value is strictly in the government-created rarity of the 1933. From an aesthetic POV, I much prefer an MCMVII UHR which is unique based on quantity, appearance, and beautifyl workmanship on the part of Saint-Gaudens. Only FDR's stupidity created the conditions of rarity that led to only 20 of the 1933 Saints surviving and only 1 being legal to own. If I had billions, maybe I'd bid on the 1933. But it's going to cost $20-$30 MM next time it sells, and that is a good chunk (>10%) of that amount above. I can buy lots of top-notch Saints or Top Pops for lots of Type Coins. Plus, endow some foundations and charities....money for family and friends...etc. Net-Net, with $200 MM I wouldn't blow $20 MM or more on 1 coin. Too big a percentage and it probably is not a good financial investment.

I believe that is a 20-year payout, right ? So to get a lump-sum today and also pay taxes (taken out automatically I believe), you probably net about 40% of that upfront after-taxes. So assuming I cleared about $200,000,000.....I would probably buy some of the items in the upcoming FUN Signature Auction or a future FUN sale.....and also look to buy an MCMVII UHR Saint. I presume that the 1933 Saint-Gaudens just sold isn't for sale. I'd also like to grab that MS-67 1908-S Saint....some top-notch SS Central America coins....and a few top-notch Morgans, esp. CC's.

Prices on CC Morgans have just exploed in the last 2 years or so.

Does "SP" sometimes mean Special Proof ? I think the 2013 ASEs with the special finishes had that on the labels.

So they're basically regular issue coins...and there are probably LOTS of MS-70's or PF-70's...even with other descriptives like PL or DMPL or 1st Strike or whatever.

JP, did you ever get one of the coins ?

But if higher-ups were allowed to "help themselves" to patterns, wouldn't the same be expected of a forthcoming regular issue that just jumps the gun by a few days or weeks or is awaiting the mass release of a coin produced in bulk and still being produced ? On a related subject, do you think that ALL of the Barber MCMVII UHR's were obtained legally via arms-length transactions for fair market value ?

What is "Bugs Bunny" referrring to ?

Seems to have some overlap with the 1933 Saint DE's, no ?

Thats insanity....what did the coins cost ? I'd pay double or triple or quadruple the retail cost (itself a 125-150% premium to spot silver)....but not 30x or more retail.

Don't we now have decent access via hi-def pics and the internet ? I think we do. No, we all can't handle the coin in-hand but we have something almost as good.

I think established auction houses do a better job than Ebay in establishing a home for Mr. Market.

That's alot of work for most coins !! Maybe feasible on 6-figure and up coins, but that's alot of micro-documentation. Is that work for a TPG or a numismatic researcher ? I dunno....maybe if we had a foundation that provided $$$ for research. How many active coin collectors would actually care about that ? They could be doing that work for a choir of 1 or 2 dozen. OK, I'm sure you have some examples of that. But for the most part, they're not going to dress something up because (1) they'd lose credibility and (2) the market wouldn't justify their actions via the pricing mechanism.

OK...so what would you want the TPGs to do in a perfect world ? Between their commentaries and the write-ups from auction houses, we do have plenty of analysis on certain unique or rare or expensive coins. It's not like 5-figure, 6-figure, and 7-figure coins are being sold with only 3 or 4 lines written about them, research-wise.

But this leaves an opening for detailed research and researchers......like.....you !!! If the TPGs, dealers, and auction houses all did what YOU want -- then there's no place for a great book like yours on Saints. Or lots of other books written by you and others, right ?

I think one can be both, Z......as long as the speculation and opinions have some basis and justification. This whole 1910 "Proof" debate has gotten me into reading those key sections of Roger's books and more write-ups on the coin over at HA, CW, etc.

Sunday GC Auction Results: Some interesting results from the most recent auction results: A 1927 MS-65 CAC went for $3,055 (w/o 12.5% bp; all prices shown are without the bp)....an MS-64 OGH for $2,088 ...an MS-64 CAC for $2,155 (close to the value of the same-graded CAC, as one might expect)....a 1926 MS-64 CAC for $2,212....a 1914 MS-65 for $21,500.

I presume everyone here can read the write-up @ HA, if not, let me know and I'll cut-and-paste it here. Link is above.

Then what do you call it or think it is ? You're not saying it's a regular 1921 Saint, are you ? Well, I have to believe that the TPGs -- both PCGS and NGC -- are not going to call a regular Saint a Proof or a Special Proof or a Specimen -- unless they have compelling reasons for it. Their reputation is on the line, right ? Debate is good, we can differ and yet not have ulterior motives. Unless a seller or TPG is guilty of GROSS negligence in overgrading or overselling a coin or calling it something it clearly is not, let them call it as they see fit and then the MARKET will decide if they are right or wrong or something in between. If this 1910 goes for 7-figures, well..........

I think anything that stimulates discussion is good, barring fraud and counterfeits sneaking past graders. I don't follow the Proof Saints as closely as I do the biz strikes but I am curious where this coin sells. It didn't get the reserve bid needed but maybe Covid played a part in 2020. The 1921 Special Proofs including the Ghiradelli (?) seem legitimized but as Roger said, this one does not seem to have the same level of authentication among all the experts, researchers, and numismatists. If it did, I would think it would have no problem getting $2 MM or more. Let's see where the bidding ends after FUN.